[tabi] e: Re: e: Re: Red Light Cameras

  • From: craig kiser <sckiser55@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:42:48 -0400

You're wrong. If a policeman sees you commit a crime, you are still legally innocent until proven guilty. It's not your burden to prove your innocence. It is the burden of the prosecution to prove your guilt. Under the red light law, you have to somehow prove your innecence. Your IRS example is another case where our right under the constitution has been done away with. In tax cases you are guilty unless and until you can prove your innocence. The intrusion of government into our lives is ever growing and we lose a little more freedom with each extension of it into our lives. However, you are entitled to your belief about the role of government. Best wishes, Craig



----- Original Message -----
From: "Allison and Chip Orange" <acorange@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:01:26 -0400
Subject: [tabi] Re: e: Re: Red Light Cameras

Sorry, but I can't agree. The easiest way to demonstrate how careless people become about the law is that when wheel-chair parking had a fine of only $10, the police simply couldn't keep the handicapped-accessible spaces empty. when the fine went to $250, magic! no more crime (as related to parking in wheel-chair reserved spots anyway). People were simply ignoring the law, and yes, I think that happens quite a bit when it comes to running
red lights.

And the argument for "guilty until proven innocent"??? sorry, but I am no more or less guilty because a policeman thinks he has seen me run a red light than when a camera and motion sensors see me do it. I'd even bet a study would show the cameras are more accurate than people, and they're
certainly on duty 24x7.

If the IRS catches you cheating on your taxes because some computer program spots it, rather than an auditor literally watching you spotting it, are you somehow less guilty? are you somehow guilty until proven innocent? we've had technological aids for catching criminals for many many years (I don't know how far back they go), and we've recognized and lived with the idea that once they become accurate enough, they're as good as any person as far
as being used for making a charge.

So, if we could catch other types of crime by putting out more cameras, I'm all for it. last week or so a package was taken from my front doorstep. i wish I had a camera there to capture the image of who did that, because it's likely to happen again and again, until the potential thieves have some reason to think they may be caught; I believe the same is true for careless drivers, and those who just choose to ignore the law and take chances by driving while using a cell phone, or by "pushing" a red light just that
extra little bit.


Chip


-----Original Message-----
From: tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of craig kiser
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:49 PM
To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [tabi] e: Re: Red Light Cameras

It's easy to get wrapped up in wanting to make our streets safer.
I don't know anyone who isn't in favor of safe streets. However, bear in mind that these cameras reverse our constitutional right to being innocent until proven guilty. When you get a notice that you've been captured on camera, you have to prove your innocence. The argument that if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear has been used by law enforcement for years to talk people into letting warrantless searches be done to their homes and automobiles. Let there be no doubt, revenue is the driving force behind red light cameras. Just look at any city council deliberations on red light cameras and you'll see the greed for the revenue they will produce. When I was run down in Tallahassee by a driver turning right on red, he came to a full stop before running over me while turning right on red. The cameras will only stop those people intentionally running the
light, not those who fail to see the red light.  How many drivers
intentionally run red lights? I have seen too many of our rights trampled
on in the name of stopping crime.

----- Original Message -----
From: "blindwilly" <blindwilly@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:17:25 -0400
Subject: [tabi] Re: Red Light Cameras

chip,

Red lights are installed at the makers cost.   The city gets a
prophet off
them.   The only ones who loose are those that like to cheat.
Can you tell
I am in favor of them?

William



----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:08 PM
Subject: [tabi] Re: Red Light Cameras


it makes no sense to me to pay for policemen, but not to pay for cameras, to make an intersection safer. if one is cheaper than the other, then it
means many more intersections can be made safer.


-----Original Message-----
From: tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joe Plummer
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:05 AM
To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [tabi] Re: Red Light Cameras

Hi, sorry but I am for getting rid of the red light cameras they
in my
opinion is just a money grabber and another way to get our
money as tax
dollars.  It don't matter what they call it is at tax.  It
don't make us no
more safer and it kill jobs.  now what I would support would
be a no right
turn on red and more police officers out on the road catching
the ones that
turn on red and running red lights.  Put a officer at the most
dangerous
intersection and let him or her go at it.  Now this would curve
running
lights and make things more safe by banding right turn on
red.  This will
help the economy by putting people to work and money into the
economy.  But
red light cameras just give the camera companies and
government our money
and does nothing for safety.  The results all over the state
show that it did
nothing to make it safer but accidents went up with the red
light cambers.
This is Just my opinion and not trying to start a political war
here.




sign,
Joe Plummer (JP)
joeplummer@xxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Allison and Chip Orange
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 7:47 PM
To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [tabi] Red Light Cameras

From: fcb-l-bounces@xxxxxxx [mailto:fcb-l-bounces@xxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
Sherri
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:07 AM
To: "Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@radio.acb.org
Subject: [fcb-l] Fw: Red Light Cameras
I am forwarding the following to encourage all of us to call
or write our
reps to oppose the proposed legislation to get rid of red
light cameras.
Doug and Nancy Hall have written excellent letters and I
encourage all of us
to do the same.
Sherri
----- Original Message -----
From:
Holly
To:
Holly Idler
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 7:48 AM
Subject: Red Light Cameras
I received this email from a good friend of mine.  I think it
is important
for us to call our Representatives and let them know that we
need to keep
the red light cameras in place.  If people are following the
laws, then they
should not be against them.  The people who don't feel that
the law applies
to them are the ones who are against the red light cameras.
It is in my opinion that the blind are safer with the cameras
in place.  If a
car is running a red light, it is caught on tape.  There is a
miss conception
that the red light cameras take pictures of the drivers and
everyone in the
car.  This is not true.  The camera takes a picture of the back
of the cars
where the license plate is located.  The driver is not seen at
all.
Therefore, if you loan your car to someone and they run the
red light, you
get the ticket, not the driver.
Holly
Red Light Cameras are in danger of being rescinded.
Write your legislators and write letters to the editor if you
want them to
continue.
This week the Florida House will be voting on HB 4087,
rescinding the red
light camera law.
Florida House of Representatives - Local representatives:
District 27    Representative Dwayne Taylor  Email:
Dwayne.Taylor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          (850) 488-0580     Fax:  (850) 488-9707
District 26    Representative Fred Costello     Email:
fred.costello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          850-488-9873
District 28     Representative Dorothy Hukill     Email:
dorothy.hukill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
          850-488-6653
Representative Jason Brodeur - (850) 488-0468
jason.brodeur@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Representative Larry Metz -
(850)488-0348
Larry.metz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Florida Senate - Local
representative:
District 7    Senator Evelyn Lynn
lynn.evelyn.web@xxxxxxxxxxxx
          850-487-5033    Local: 386-238-3180
Senator John Thrasher - (850) 487-5030
thrasher.john.web@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Senator Tony Hill - (850) 487-5024
hill.anthony.web@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Senator Alan Hays - (850) 487-5014
hays.alan.web@xxxxxxxxxxxx
_________________________________
Nancy's  Letter:
Happy about red light cameras
I, for one, am in favor of the red light camera.  If drivers
obeyed the
traffic laws, stopped the use of cell phones while driving and
were
defensive drivers, red-light cameras would be unnecessary.
Too many of my blind friends have been hit in their attempt
to lawfully
cross streets at intersections (Florida's white cane law, FS
316.1301,
316.1303: Drivers must stop for pedestrians with a white
cane, guide dog or
mobility aid).  Too often, drivers ignore the ''right on red
law'' and fail
to yield the right of way to pedestrians.
Too often, there are no witnesses to stand up for the victims
of careless
drivers.
Perhaps these cameras will catch the lawbreakers so they can
be prosecuted.
Citizens don't complain about the cameras in banks, at ATMs,
toll booths, in
stores, airports, hospitals, court houses and other
government buildings -
all of which are placed for our safety.
Those people who vocally protest against the cameras just
don't want to be
caught and told to pay for their misconduct.
Automobile accidents are decreasing where these cameras have
been placed.
The new count-down walk lights alert the driver as to when
the light will
turn, thus preventing any need to suddenly brake.
As a side benefit, cities and the state of Florida are
getting a little
needed income during these hard economic times.
Please DO NOT rescind these needed safety measures.
__________________________
Doug's letter:
I understand that an attempt has been made to overturn the
Legislature's
previous vote to permit red light cameras at intersections in
Florida.  As
far as I am concerned, supporters of HB 4087 are voting to
approve a
driver's decision to endanger pedestrians and others by
refusing to obey the
law.  As for their assertion that red light cameras are an
invasion of
privacy, what about camera use by business, at many agencies or
on the
interstates?  Are the use of cameras to assist in stopping or
resolving
crimes, like robberies or assaults, an invasion of a
criminal's privacy?  As
for the argument against them, saying that their use is just a
way to
increase revenue, what is wrong with that?  I thought the
administration is
trying to balance the budget.
Frankly,
all a person needs to do to avoid paying these fines is to
obey the law in
the first place.
As you know, we have been endeavoring to improve pedestrian
safety,
especially for people who are blind.  In the past few years,
we've had
several instances where people who are blind have been hit
while attempting
to cross streets.  How can we judge when it is safe to cross
when drivers
refuse to stop for red lights or pedestrians?
I hope and expect that use of red light cameras will assist
in  pedestrian
safety.
Rather than doing away with the cameras, I'd like to see them
placed at more
intersections!
_______________________
Florida House to reconsider red light camera law Some
lawmakers argue the
law contributes to more accidents April 21, 2011|  By
Kathleen Haughney,
Tallahassee Bureau Just a year after lawmakers passed a law
legalizing red
light cameras at traffic intersections, a new crop of
legislators wants to
slam on the brakes.
The decision authorizing local governments to install cameras
- and ticket
drivers
$158 for running red lights - came after several years of
debate and a push
by municipalities, law enforcement and safety advocates.  But
the experience
with the cameras in South Florida, advocates of repeal argue,
justifies
pulling the plug.
Both the Florida House and Senate are looking at repeal
proposals, though
only the House measure is moving.  On Wednesday, the House
Appropriations
Committee voted 12-9 to send HB 4087 to the full House.  Its
sponsor, Rep.
Richard Corcoran, R-Trinity, argued that cameras have
actually increased the
number of bad traffic accidents at intersections.
"Let's step back and figure out a way where we can make these
intersections
safer for our communities," he said.
_____________________
April 1, 2011
Daytona Beach has erected red-light cameras, counted the
money it should
take in, and is set to turn them on next week.  But this could
turn out to be
a very short-lived experiment.
The Florida Senate's Transportation Committee voted 4-2
Tuesday for a bill
that would ban the devices.  The bill slid over to the
Community Affairs
Committee.
Red-light cameras take pictures or videos of license plates
of cars that run
red lights.
The registered owners of the vehicles then receive a ticket
in the mail.
Florida
law started authorizing them only last year.
When the city of Daytona Beach looked at how many red-light
runners it was
likely to catch at 10 major intersections, and did the math,
it figured it
could take in more than a $1 million in the first nine
months.  The City
Commission jumped at the chance to approve them.
If this bill passes, the cameras will need to come down and
the city will
have a more than million-dollar hole in its budget.  But it's
not like we're
alone.
It's
estimated that around the state, the camera systems were
going to raise $70
million in the state's next fiscal year and $71.7 million for
local
governments.
__________________________
April 4, 2011
Red light cameras in full swing today
DAYTONA BEACH - Drivers might want to pay closer attention to
the yellow
caution lights at four major intersections in the city starting
today.
Red light cameras were set to go into effect just after
midnight Sunday,
with violations costing $158, according to a city news release.
The four intersections set to have the cameras up and running
include:
| Clyde Morris Boulevard and West International Speedway
Boulevard | Nova
Road and International Speedway Boulevard | Nova Road and
Mason Avenue |
Ridgewood Avenue (U.S.  1) and International Speedway Boulevard.
Eventually, plans call for cameras at another five or six of
the city's
busiest intersections.
The state will collect $83 from every $158 fine, and the
Massachusetts
company that's installing the cameras and doing most of the
work on the
program will charge the city $4,600 per month per camera.
But even after those fees, the city estimates it could still
raise more than
$1 million
annually.
The program, however, could turn out to be short-lived.  A
bill currently
working its way through the state Legislature would ban the
cameras.
_________________________
Editorial in the News-Journal
April 6, 2011
FLORIDA VOICES Red-light cameras fail on privacy,
effectiveness By CHAR-LEZ
BRADEN vice chairman of the Libertarian Party of Florida
Red-light cameras
are a cure that's worse than the disease.
Careless drivers running red lights are a serious hazard.  The
desire to
catch these dangerous drivers and motivate them to be safer
drivers is a
good one.
Unfortunately,
the use of redlight cameras presents us with some very
disturbing problems.
First is the cameras' constitutionality.  In our legal system,
one has the
right to face one's accuser, per the Sixth Amendment.  No
defendant can
subpoena a camera and cross-examine it, yet it is giving
testimony in a
legal proceeding.  No law enforcement officer was present when
the photo was
taken, if it was taken at all.
Indeed, it is presumed that the photo is authentic and
unedited, and that
the camera or street light system did not fail.  None of these
things can be
honestly determined in a court of law.
These are not trivial points because, taken collectively,
they open the door
to justice by robot, where evidence is manufactured, out of
the control of
responsible authorities to be used in a court proceeding
against defendants
who are denied their constitutional protections.
Second, the citation process is prone to error.  In a standard
situation, a
police officer stops the car in question, identifies the
driver, and, after
some discussion, hands the driver a citation to sign which
notifies the
driver of the pending charge and gives the court evidence of
such
notification.
What happens in the case of a redlight camera when the
citation is simply
mailed?
What if you're not often at your official residence, as may
be the case for
college students? What if you recently moved? What if you're
sent on
military deployment immediately after the photo was snapped?
What if the
postal service just makes an honest mistake? There are many
reasons why
people may not receive their citation in the mail, and yet
the court is
supposed to act as if you have received proper notice?
This leads many people to conclude the use of cameras is
about money for the
government, not safety for the drivers.  And this is not just
idle paranoia
as you will see with the third point: The motives of the
vendors of the
equipment, and those municipalities that use them, are suspect
at best
because neither makes any money unless someone breaks the
law.  This puts the
municipalities in the position of being tempted to arrange
yellow lights and
other factors to trap motorists.  This may sound like a
far-out assertion,
but it is exactly what was shown to be the case in Baltimore.
If it happened there, why not where you live?
In a time of financial stress, do we really want to allow even
the
possibility of abuse?
Fourth, the use of red-light cameras is meant to curb people
causing
property damage, injury and death.  But it merely shifts the
problem.  As
drivers become aware of red-light cameras, they begin to drive
more
erratically when presented with a yellow or red light as they
smash the
brake pedal in an attempt to avoid a ticket, thus leading to
an increased
number of rear-end collisions.
Red-light cameras create accidents - exactly the thing they
were to address
- while
opening a can of worms on the constitutional issues and
making a pile of
money for cities and vendors.  Does anyone else see how these
things fail to
pass the sniff test?
Fifth and finally, we have every right to ask ourselves this:
Do we want to
live in a society where cameras record our every move? This
issue is not to
be left to the politicians, who have been shown to be willing
and even eager
to create a surveillance society.  At the end of the day, those
are our
streets and our corners and our red lights.  We have the final
say about
having our every move monitored.
Free people are not lorded over by faceless ones issuing
citations from
desks, on evidence the faceless ones cannot personally vouch
for.  Free
people drive their cars, not looking over their shoulders for
cameras.
When you add it all up, the cost to our society far outweighs
the claimed
benefits.
--
"God gives you 86,400 seconds in a day.  Take one to say Thank
You."
Walter A.  Ward

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and please make suggestions for new material.



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and please make suggestions for new material.



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the subject.
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and please make suggestions for new material.



if you'd like to unsubscribe you can do so through the freelists.org web interface, or by sending an email to the address tabi-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Check out the TABI resource web page at http://acorange.home.comcast.net/TABI
and please make suggestions for new material.



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