[SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model

No.
Istvan Nagy wrote:
> can we use the frequency keyword in time domain simulation too?
> i wouldlike to make a basic spice netlist.
> i would like to use spices not on the market, but in the public domain 
> (opensource).
>
> Istvan
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:50 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>
>
>   
>> Istvan your flavor of SPICE needs to have frequency keyword support as a
>> number in the market currently do.
>>
>> Steve
>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>     
>>> hi
>>>
>>> the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as
>>> usual. i normally dont haave measurement data.
>>> the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the  Er into
>>> account, skin effect,...
>>> these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped 
>>> model
>>> based on equations containing E^x... and similar things.
>>> at least these 2 effects should be included.
>>> Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366)  this gives a frequency dependency for C
>>> and G
>>> R is dependent on f because of the skin effect.
>>> somehow L is also dependent on frequency?
>>>
>>> because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few
>>> parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size.
>>>
>>> Istvan
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Istvan what data do you have?  Do you have measurements from material
>>>> samples?
>>>>
>>>> For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent
>>>> loss.  If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will
>>>> tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances
>>>> than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Steve.
>>>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> hi
>>>>> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency
>>>>> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st
>>>>> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good.
>>>>> are there any equations?
>>>>> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4 
>>>>> element
>>>>> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with 
>>>>> staying
>>>>> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice)
>>>>>
>>>>> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not 
>>>>> w-element
>>>>> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary
>>>>> power planes, with lumped-element grid.
>>>>> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the
>>>>> calculated values, without describing the calculation.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> Istvan Nagy
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>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> -- 
>>>> Steve Weir
>>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>>> 121 North River Drive
>>>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>>>
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>>>>         
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>> -- 
>> Steve Weir
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>
>> California office
>> (866) 675-4630 Business
>> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>>
>> Main office
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> Oregon office
>> (503) 430-1065 Business
>> (503) 430-1285 Fax
>>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of 
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group 
>> LLC
>>
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>>     
>
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>   


-- 
Steve Weir
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 
121 North River Drive 
Narragansett, RI 02882 

California office
(866) 675-4630 Business
(707) 780-1951 Fax

Main office
(401) 284-1827 Business 
(401) 284-1840 Fax 

Oregon office
(503) 430-1065 Business
(503) 430-1285 Fax

http://www.teraspeed.com
This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of 
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC

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