[SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model

can we use the frequency keyword in time domain simulation too?
i wouldlike to make a basic spice netlist.
i would like to use spices not on the market, but in the public domain 
(opensource).

Istvan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model


> Istvan your flavor of SPICE needs to have frequency keyword support as a
> number in the market currently do.
>
> Steve
> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as
>> usual. i normally dont haave measurement data.
>> the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the  Er into
>> account, skin effect,...
>> these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped 
>> model
>> based on equations containing E^x... and similar things.
>> at least these 2 effects should be included.
>> Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366)  this gives a frequency dependency for C
>> and G
>> R is dependent on f because of the skin effect.
>> somehow L is also dependent on frequency?
>>
>> because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few
>> parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size.
>>
>> Istvan
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>>
>>
>>
>>> Istvan what data do you have?  Do you have measurements from material
>>> samples?
>>>
>>> For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent
>>> loss.  If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will
>>> tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances
>>> than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Steve.
>>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi
>>>> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency
>>>> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st
>>>> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good.
>>>> are there any equations?
>>>> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4 
>>>> element
>>>> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with 
>>>> staying
>>>> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice)
>>>>
>>>> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not 
>>>> w-element
>>>> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary
>>>> power planes, with lumped-element grid.
>>>> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the
>>>> calculated values, without describing the calculation.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> Istvan Nagy
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Steve Weir
>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Steve Weir
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
>
> California office
> (866) 675-4630 Business
> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>
> Main office
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> Oregon office
> (503) 430-1065 Business
> (503) 430-1285 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of 
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group 
> LLC
>
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