[SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model

Istvan your flavor of SPICE needs to have frequency keyword support as a 
number in the market currently do. 

Steve
Istvan Nagy wrote:
> hi
>
> the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as 
> usual. i normally dont haave measurement data.
> the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the  Er into 
> account, skin effect,...
> these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped model 
> based on equations containing E^x... and similar things.
> at least these 2 effects should be included.
> Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366)  this gives a frequency dependency for C 
> and G
> R is dependent on f because of the skin effect.
> somehow L is also dependent on frequency?
>
> because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few 
> parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size.
>
> Istvan
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>
>
>   
>> Istvan what data do you have?  Do you have measurements from material
>> samples?
>>
>> For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent
>> loss.  If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will
>> tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances
>> than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not 
>> great.
>>
>> Steve.
>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>     
>>> hi
>>> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency 
>>> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st 
>>> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good.
>>> are there any equations?
>>> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4 element 
>>> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with staying 
>>> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice)
>>>
>>> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not w-element 
>>> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary 
>>> power planes, with lumped-element grid.
>>> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the 
>>> calculated values, without describing the calculation.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Istvan Nagy
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>> -- 
>> Steve Weir
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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>>     
>
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-- 
Steve Weir
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 
121 North River Drive 
Narragansett, RI 02882 

California office
(866) 675-4630 Business
(707) 780-1951 Fax

Main office
(401) 284-1827 Business 
(401) 284-1840 Fax 

Oregon office
(503) 430-1065 Business
(503) 430-1285 Fax

http://www.teraspeed.com
This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of 
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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