[SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model

hi

the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as 
usual. i normally dont haave measurement data.
the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the  Er into 
account, skin effect,...
these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped model 
based on equations containing E^x... and similar things.
at least these 2 effects should be included.
Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366)  this gives a frequency dependency for C 
and G
R is dependent on f because of the skin effect.
somehow L is also dependent on frequency?

because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few 
parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size.

Istvan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model


> Istvan what data do you have?  Do you have measurements from material
> samples?
>
> For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent
> loss.  If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will
> tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances
> than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not 
> great.
>
> Steve.
> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>> hi
>> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency 
>> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st 
>> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good.
>> are there any equations?
>> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4 element 
>> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with staying 
>> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice)
>>
>> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not w-element 
>> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary 
>> power planes, with lumped-element grid.
>> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the 
>> calculated values, without describing the calculation.
>>
>> regards,
>> Istvan Nagy
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