Mick, To answer your question: In theory, Yes. In practice, No. The fundamental principle for SPICE model approach is using lumped elements (RLC) to model distributed effect (S-parameter). For lower frequency and small size, it is possible. But for broad-band frequency and large size (say, 20' FR-4), it is very hard to model the dispersive effects accurately. That's why people start to use frequency-dependent elements, or better yet, import S-parameter directly into Spice engine. Regards, Yu === Apache Design Solutions web: www.apache-da.com Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote: > Xin Wu > > Thanks for your information. It will be valuable. > However, it still contains something like (from the example on the web you > referred) > > E11 11 12 FREQ {V(10,5)}= > > which will not be accepted by some circuit simulators such as ADS. It is > similar to Ansoft fullwave SPICE. I know HSPICE and PSPICE can handle it. > > Although it is still a research topic in terms of efficiency, stability and > accuracy etc., I know the problem [S] ---> SPICE model (reduced models) is > solvable without the following limitations in several ways. But, can we > generate broadband SPICE models without frequency dependent lookup tables > such as " FREQ " ? Or is it still solvable without components "FREQ" etc. ? > > Regards, > > Mick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Xin Wu [mailto:lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:38 PM > To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) > > > Hi, XL, > If you want to convert S-matrix into a spice simulator, a lot of > commercial software can do that--that's the simplest way. However, it is > possible for yourself to make a equivalent subcircuit which can include the > timing and frequency info and then import to a spice like simulator. Here > are some application notes: > http://wwwinfo.cern.ch/ce/ae/Maxwell/apps/2stripem/2stripem.html > If you want to get involved in more details, I remembered that somebody did > his Ph.D work on this in UIUC around early 1990s'. > > > > Xin Wu > Ph.D student, > University of Maryland, College Park > Http://www.wam.umd.edu/~xwu > > > > > > >>From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>Reply-To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx >>CC: "'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:41 -0800 >> >> >>Mick, >> >>There are two solutions which I use: >> >>1) Apache Nspice is an Hspice compatabible simulator that can >>co-simulate with Touchstone S-parameter files. >>http://www.apache-da.com/ >> >>2) Sigrity BroadBand Spice can convert Touchstone s-parameter files into >>spice black boxes. >>http://www.sigrity.com/ >> >>Both are scary accurate in both the frequency and time domain. >> >>regards, >> >>scott >> >>-- >>Scott McMorrow >>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >>2926 SE Yamhill St. >>Portland, OR 97214 >>(503) 239-5536 >>http://www.teraspeed.com >> >> >>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote: >> >> >>>Hello, >>> >>>Did anybody successfully generate broadband (DC-20GHz) SPICE model from S >>>matrix for complex structures using the SPICE generator in ADS ? Or any >>>other alternatives. I know Ansoft fullwave SPICE does the work. >>>Unfortunately, some circuit simulators do not support the frequency >>>dependent lookup table sources. We can definitely use [S] directly, but >>> >>some >> >>>users still prefer SPICE models. Any experience to share ? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Xingling(Mick) Zhou, PhD >>>Signal Integrity Technologist >>>Agere Systems >>> >>>Tel: 610-712-7462 >>>Fax: 610-712-4081 >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> >>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>>For help: >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>>List archives are viewable at: >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>or at our remote archives: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>To unsubscribe from si-list: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >>For help: >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >>List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu