[SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)

  • From: Yu Liu <yu_liu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:31:32 -0800

Mick,

To answer your question: In theory, Yes. In practice, No.

The fundamental principle for SPICE model approach is using lumped 
elements (RLC) to model distributed effect (S-parameter). For lower 
frequency and small size, it is possible. But for broad-band frequency 
and large size (say, 20' FR-4), it is very hard to model the dispersive 
effects accurately. That's why people start to use frequency-dependent 
elements, or better yet, import S-parameter directly into Spice engine.


Regards,

Yu
===

Apache Design Solutions
web: www.apache-da.com



Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote:

> Xin Wu
> 
> Thanks for your information. It will be valuable.
> However, it still contains something like (from the example on the web you
> referred)
> 
> E11 11 12 FREQ {V(10,5)}=
> 
> which will not be accepted by some circuit simulators such as ADS. It is
> similar to Ansoft fullwave SPICE. I know HSPICE and PSPICE can handle it. 
> 
> Although it is still a research topic in terms of efficiency, stability and
> accuracy etc., I know the problem [S] ---> SPICE model (reduced models) is
> solvable without the following limitations in several ways. But, can we
> generate broadband SPICE models without frequency dependent lookup tables
> such as " FREQ " ?  Or is it still solvable without components "FREQ" etc. ?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mick
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xin Wu [mailto:lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:38 PM
> To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
> 
> 
> Hi, XL,
>    If you want to convert S-matrix into a spice simulator, a lot of 
> commercial software can do that--that's the simplest way. However, it is 
> possible for yourself to make a equivalent subcircuit which can include the 
> timing and frequency info and then import to a spice like simulator. Here 
> are some application notes:
> http://wwwinfo.cern.ch/ce/ae/Maxwell/apps/2stripem/2stripem.html
> If you want to get involved in more details, I remembered that somebody did 
> his Ph.D work on this in UIUC around early 1990s'.
> 
> 
> 
> Xin Wu
> Ph.D student,
> University of Maryland, College Park
> Http://www.wam.umd.edu/~xwu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Reply-To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
>>CC: "'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
>>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:41 -0800
>>
>>
>>Mick,
>>
>>There are two solutions which I use:
>>
>>1) Apache Nspice is an Hspice compatabible simulator that can
>>co-simulate with Touchstone S-parameter files.
>>http://www.apache-da.com/
>>
>>2) Sigrity BroadBand Spice can convert Touchstone s-parameter files into
>>spice black boxes.
>>http://www.sigrity.com/
>>
>>Both are scary accurate in both the frequency and time domain.
>>
>>regards,
>>
>>scott
>>
>>--
>>Scott McMorrow
>>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>2926 SE Yamhill St.
>>Portland, OR 97214
>>(503) 239-5536
>>http://www.teraspeed.com
>>
>>
>>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>Did anybody successfully generate broadband (DC-20GHz) SPICE model from S
>>>matrix for complex structures using the SPICE generator in ADS ? Or any
>>>other alternatives. I know Ansoft fullwave SPICE does the work.
>>>Unfortunately, some circuit simulators do not support the frequency
>>>dependent lookup table sources. We can definitely use [S] directly, but 
>>>
>>some
>>
>>>users still prefer SPICE models. Any experience to share ?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Xingling(Mick) Zhou, PhD
>>>Signal Integrity Technologist
>>>Agere Systems
>>>
>>>Tel: 610-712-7462
>>>Fax: 610-712-4081
>>>
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>>>
>>
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> .
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> 



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