[SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?

Glad to make the measurements for you.

Happy Holidays.

Lee


> [Original Message]
> From: HINTON,MARK <mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 12/4/2007 4:56:02 AM
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> My fabricator is in the US, and they said the 3313 was a special order
> with an MOQ and higher cost.  I've got a small qty, so this is not
> appealing.  They were shell-shocked at the idea of rotating artwork, but
> happy to use specific glass weaves.
>
> It looks like we'll build this board with 2116 glass, and I'm hoping to
> get a board to Lee for measurement in January.  
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:08 AM
> To: Jeff Loyer
> Cc: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> The correct designator for this weave is 3313 and it is not so hard to
> get.
> It's used all over Asia.  I've build hundreds of boards in the US using
> 3313.  Isola makes a lot of this laminate and prepreg.
>
> One fabricator who has it in stock is Merix.  They much prefer using
> this
> material to rotating images.  I've copied John Stephens from Merix to
> confirm this.
>
> Lee
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Loyer, Jeff <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 12/3/2007 9:53:32 AM
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > As with everything, there are pros/cons to each.
> >
> > In his e-mail, Mark referred to a "special order 3113".  That implies
> > some challenges, perhaps including delivery delays, a limited supply
> > base, and/or significant cost adder.
> >
> > Rotating the image would eliminate that problem, albeit with its own
> > complications.
> >
> > Just suggesting an alternative; I don't know which is the most
> > attractive for this particular application.
> >
> > Jeff Loyer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lee Ritchey [mailto:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:23 AM
> > To: Loyer, Jeff; mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Cc: si-list
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > Why do that and make either CAD or Fab tougher when usinghte right
> glass
> > weave solved the problem nicely?
> >
> > Lee Ritchey
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Loyer, Jeff <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 12/3/2007 9:02:02 AM
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >
> > > Mark,
> > > For a low-volume test PCB, why don't you tweak the artwork 10
> degrees?
> > >
> > > Jeff Loyer
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of HINTON,MARK
> > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:48 PM
> > > To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Cc: si-list
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >
> > > Lee,
> > >
> > > Have you tested 2116 glass yet?  I'm doing a low-volume test PCB,
> and
> > I
> > > may have to choose between 2116 or a high-cost special order of
> 3113.
> > > If you haven't tested it yet, would you venture an educated guess on
> > how
> > > it would perform?  I've got pretty wide traces (9.5 mils).
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:23 AM
> > > To: Scott McMorrow; Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Cc: si-list
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >
> > > The weave I document is 3313 glass.  It is widely used in Asia and
> is
> > a
> > > stock weave from Isola.  We just completed testing on 2113 weave and
> > > obtained similar results.  The two thin weaves that are at the root
> of
> > > the
> > > problem are 106 and 1080.  3313 has not been widely used by US
> > > fabricators,
> > > I suspect because designers have been asking for the thinnest
> possible
> > > laminates and that is why 1080 and 106 are used most  often in the
> US.
> > > You
> > > don't get 3313 and 2113 here unless you stick to your guns and
> insist
> > on
> > > it.  When you do, there are no real problems.
> > >
> > > We've just completed testing two designs with 48 ports of 10 GE with
> > > superb
> > > results.  One used 2113 and the other 3313.
> > >
> > > 7628 is about as coarse as the cloth used to make levis.  Not a good
> > > choice.
> > >
> > > Lee
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Date: 9/14/2007 1:21:15 PM
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > >
> > > > Perry
> > > > Fiber-weave effects are alive and well, and IMO should be
> considered
> > > by=3D20
> > > > every designer concerned with 6 Gbps or higher differential serial
> > > data=3D20
> > > > communications channels on PCBs, backplanes, and single-ended =
> > > skew=3D20
> > > > controlled parallel buses.  Jeff's paper is real life, building
> > > upon=3D20
> > > > about 5 years of good research at Intel.  The method that is used
> > > is=3D20
> > > > quite valid and will be seen in real designs.  The Intel research
> > > is=3D20
> > > > able to better characterize weave skew using physical nyquist
> > sampling
> > >
> > > > techniques.  Yes, with different trace jogs you will see all sorts
> > > of=3D20
> > > > potential alignments, but in the worst case you will still find
> > > that=3D20
> > > > traces can have significant lengths of worst case fiber weave=3D20
> > > > alignment.  If you are trying to design systems with 1000's
> of=3D20
> > > > differential pairs, there is a statistical certainty that one or
> > more
> > > of=3D20
> > > > those pairs will have skew close to the absolute worst case, if =
> > > not=3D20
> > > > designed to compensate for laminate weave anisotropy.
> > > >
> > > > The problem is most pronounced with weaves that have large holes
> > > without=3D20
> > > > fiber in the weave pattern, but you will also see issues with =
> > > core=3D20
> > > > materials that are often constructed with large diameter fibers,
> > > like=3D20
> > > > 7628 material. The fiberglass the Lee proposes to use does have
> > > some=3D20
> > > > benefits, however, it does not totally eliminate the fiber
> > weave=3D20
> > > > problem.  It reduces it to a lower level.  Unfortunately, it is
> not
> > > a=3D20
> > > > widely manufactured laminate weave.
> > > >
> > > > There are patented techniques for improving weave-induced skew,
> > > which=3D20
> > > > must be licensed.  There are also some non-patented techniques,
> > > which=3D20
> > > > may also be used that are not quite as effective as the
> > patented=3D20
> > > > techniques, but nevertheless can be used to design robust systems.
> =
> > > =3D20
> > > > There is also some silicon IP that can be used to
> automatically=3D20
> > > > compensate for skew, and is finding it's way into test
> > > instrumentation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > > Scott McMorrow
> > > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > > > 121 North River Drive
> > > > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > > > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > > > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> > > >
> > > > http://www.teraspeed.com
> > > >
> > > > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
> > > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > QU Perry wrote:
> > > > > I would be interested to see a link as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff's paper on DesignCon2007 is convincing to me that this is
> > > something
> > > > > we need to pay attention. Real life design will probably not be
> as
> > > bad
> > > > > as the theoretical estimate since most of the diff pair routing
> we
> > > have
> > > > > on the PCB is not likely to run a long length non-stop in
> parallel
> > > with
> > > > > edge. The "jog" as is called in the paper is very common due to
> > vias
> > > etc
> > > > > and pretty random.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also from the data we got from PCB vendor, it appears that
> thinner
> > > > > dielectric substrate the worse fibre weave effect as the gap
> > between
> > > the
> > > > > fiber is larger. Has this been looked at ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Perry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3
> > D=
> > > 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> > > D=3D
> > > 3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> > > =3D3D3D=3D3D
> > > > > =3D
> > >
> >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3
> > D=
> > > 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> > > D=3D
> > > 20
> > > > >
> > > > > Perry Qu=3D3D20
> > > > >
> > > > > Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada=3D3D20
> > > > >
> > > > > DID: 613-7846720  Fax: 613-5993642=3D3D20
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3
> > D=
> > > 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> > > D=3D
> > > 3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> > > =3D3D3D=3D3D
> > > > > =3D
> > >
> >
> =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3
> > D=
> > > 3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3
> > > D=3D
> > > 20
> > > > >
> > > > > =3D3D20
> > > > >
> > > > >  =3D20
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > > > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of=3D3D20
> > > > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
> > > > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM
> > > > >> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;=3D3D20
> > > > >> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> Would you like to share a link?=3D3D3D20
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> Aubrey Sparkman=3D3D3D20
> > > > >> Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D3D3D20 Dell,
> > > Inc.=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > > > >> (512) 723-3592=3D3D3D20
> > > > >> "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
> and=3D3D20
> > > > >> thinking what nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > > > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > >> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> > > > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:36 AM
> > > > >> To: Russell S. Dudek Jr.; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> We already have a glass weave solution.  Check my column
> > in=3D3D20
> > > > >> the April issue of Circuitree magazine.
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> Lee Ritchey
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> [Original Message]
> > > > >>> From: Russell S. Dudek Jr. <rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > >>> Date: 9/12/2007 1:10:28 PM
> > > > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Steve,
> > > > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>> I agree, Fiber Weave Effect (FEW) has most certainly
> been=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> confirmed by
> > > > >> such
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> research.  However, there is a new change in the wind.
> I=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> have the=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> unique opportunity, as a technical liaison, to enable a=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> technology=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> that may put
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> an
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> end to FWE as a consideration in high-speed designs.
> We=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> all know that
> > > > >> =3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> the crux of the matter is the glass weave and its effect
> > on=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> localized
> > > > >> Er.
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> Either get ride of the reinforcement layer completely or
> > > more=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > >>> challenging change the fundamentals of the glass weave
> > fabrication
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> process (GWFP).
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>> We have taken the more challenging (and fun) approach and =3D
> > > have=3D3D20
> > > > >>> rocked=3D3D3D20 the fundamentals the GWFP.  I cannot disclose
> > much
> > > the=3D3D20
> > > > >>> specifics of=3D3D3D20 the technology and our partners in such
> > =3D
> > > an=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> open forum. =3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> However, if=3D3D3D20 you are interested learning more feel =
> > > free=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> to contact=3D3D20
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> me and we can=3D3D3D20 get the proper NDAs in place to =3D
> > > facilitate=3D3D20
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > >> such a discussion.
> > > > >>    =3D20
> > > > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>> RD
> > > > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>> Russell Dudek
> > > > >>> Technology Specialist
> > > > >>> Compunetics, Inc.
> > > > >>> 700 Seco Road
> > > > >>> Monroeville, PA 15146
> > > > >>> 412-858-6264
> > > > >>> rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >>> www.compunetics.com <http://www.compunetics.com/> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> To see where no one notices the contrast of white on white is
> =
> > > =3D3D
> > > > >>>      =3D20
> > > > > an=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > >  =3D20
> > > > >>> indispensable virtue of infinite potential.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
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> > > List archives are viewable at:    =3D20
> > >           http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >  =3D20
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> field
> > >
> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > >
> > >
> > > List technical documents are available at:
> > >                 http://www.si-list.net
> > >
> > > List archives are viewable at:    =20
> > >           http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >  =20
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> field
> > >
> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > >
> > >
> > > List technical documents are available at:
> > >                 http://www.si-list.net
> > >
> > > List archives are viewable at:     
> > >           http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > >           http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >   
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.net
>
> List archives are viewable at:     
>               http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> or at our remote archives:
>               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>               http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>   


------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.net

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
  

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