[SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
- From: "HINTON,MARK" <mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:55:49 -0800
My fabricator is in the US, and they said the 3313 was a special order
with an MOQ and higher cost. I've got a small qty, so this is not
appealing. They were shell-shocked at the idea of rotating artwork, but
happy to use specific glass weaves.
It looks like we'll build this board with 2116 glass, and I'm hoping to
get a board to Lee for measurement in January. =20
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:08 AM
To: Jeff Loyer
Cc: si-list
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
The correct designator for this weave is 3313 and it is not so hard to
get.
It's used all over Asia. I've build hundreds of boards in the US using
3313. Isola makes a lot of this laminate and prepreg.
One fabricator who has it in stock is Merix. They much prefer using
this
material to rotating images. I've copied John Stephens from Merix to
confirm this.
Lee
> [Original Message]
> From: Loyer, Jeff <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 12/3/2007 9:53:32 AM
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> As with everything, there are pros/cons to each.
>
> In his e-mail, Mark referred to a "special order 3113". That implies
> some challenges, perhaps including delivery delays, a limited supply
> base, and/or significant cost adder.
>
> Rotating the image would eliminate that problem, albeit with its own
> complications.
>
> Just suggesting an alternative; I don't know which is the most
> attractive for this particular application.
>
> Jeff Loyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Ritchey [mailto:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:23 AM
> To: Loyer, Jeff; mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
>
> Why do that and make either CAD or Fab tougher when usinghte right
glass
> weave solved the problem nicely?
>
> Lee Ritchey
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Loyer, Jeff <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <mark.hinton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 12/3/2007 9:02:02 AM
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > Mark,
> > For a low-volume test PCB, why don't you tweak the artwork 10
degrees?
> >
> > Jeff Loyer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of HINTON,MARK
> > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:48 PM
> > To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Cc: si-list
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > Have you tested 2116 glass yet? I'm doing a low-volume test PCB,
and
> I
> > may have to choose between 2116 or a high-cost special order of
3113.
> > If you haven't tested it yet, would you venture an educated guess on
> how
> > it would perform? I've got pretty wide traces (9.5 mils).
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:23 AM
> > To: Scott McMorrow; Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Cc: si-list
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> >
> > The weave I document is 3313 glass. It is widely used in Asia and
is
> a
> > stock weave from Isola. We just completed testing on 2113 weave and
> > obtained similar results. The two thin weaves that are at the root
of
> > the
> > problem are 106 and 1080. 3313 has not been widely used by US
> > fabricators,
> > I suspect because designers have been asking for the thinnest
possible
> > laminates and that is why 1080 and 106 are used most often in the
US.
> > You
> > don't get 3313 and 2113 here unless you stick to your guns and
insist
> on
> > it. When you do, there are no real problems.
> >
> > We've just completed testing two designs with 48 ports of 10 GE with
> > superb
> > results. One used 2113 and the other 3313.
> >
> > 7628 is about as coarse as the cloth used to make levis. Not a good
> > choice.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 9/14/2007 1:21:15 PM
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > >
> > > Perry
> > > Fiber-weave effects are alive and well, and IMO should be
considered
> > by=3D3D20
> > > every designer concerned with 6 Gbps or higher differential serial
> > data=3D3D20
> > > communications channels on PCBs, backplanes, and single-ended =3D
> > skew=3D3D20
> > > controlled parallel buses. Jeff's paper is real life, building
> > upon=3D3D20
> > > about 5 years of good research at Intel. The method that is used
> > is=3D3D20
> > > quite valid and will be seen in real designs. The Intel research
> > is=3D3D20
> > > able to better characterize weave skew using physical nyquist
> sampling
> >
> > > techniques. Yes, with different trace jogs you will see all sorts
> > of=3D3D20
> > > potential alignments, but in the worst case you will still find
> > that=3D3D20
> > > traces can have significant lengths of worst case fiber =
weave=3D3D20
> > > alignment. If you are trying to design systems with 1000's
of=3D3D20
> > > differential pairs, there is a statistical certainty that one or
> more
> > of=3D3D20
> > > those pairs will have skew close to the absolute worst case, if =
=3D
> > not=3D3D20
> > > designed to compensate for laminate weave anisotropy.
> > >
> > > The problem is most pronounced with weaves that have large holes
> > without=3D3D20
> > > fiber in the weave pattern, but you will also see issues with =3D
> > core=3D3D20
> > > materials that are often constructed with large diameter fibers,
> > like=3D3D20
> > > 7628 material. The fiberglass the Lee proposes to use does have
> > some=3D3D20
> > > benefits, however, it does not totally eliminate the fiber
> weave=3D3D20
> > > problem. It reduces it to a lower level. Unfortunately, it is
not
> > a=3D3D20
> > > widely manufactured laminate weave.
> > >
> > > There are patented techniques for improving weave-induced skew,
> > which=3D3D20
> > > must be licensed. There are also some non-patented techniques,
> > which=3D3D20
> > > may also be used that are not quite as effective as the
> patented=3D3D20
> > > techniques, but nevertheless can be used to design robust systems.
=3D
> > =3D3D20
> > > There is also some silicon IP that can be used to
automatically=3D3D20
> > > compensate for skew, and is finding it's way into test
> > instrumentation.
> > >
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > Scott McMorrow
> > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > > 121 North River Drive
> > > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> > >
> > > http://www.teraspeed.com
> > >
> > > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
> > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > QU Perry wrote:
> > > > I would be interested to see a link as well.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff's paper on DesignCon2007 is convincing to me that this is
> > something
> > > > we need to pay attention. Real life design will probably not be
as
> > bad
> > > > as the theoretical estimate since most of the diff pair routing
we
> > have
> > > > on the PCB is not likely to run a long length non-stop in
parallel
> > with
> > > > edge. The "jog" as is called in the paper is very common due to
> vias
> > etc
> > > > and pretty random.
> > > >
> > > > Also from the data we got from PCB vendor, it appears that
thinner
> > > > dielectric substrate the worse fibre weave effect as the gap
> between
> > the
> > > > fiber is larger. Has this been looked at ?
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Perry
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>
=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D=
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> > 3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3
> > D=3D3D
> > =
3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3=
D=3D3D3D3D
> > =3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> > > > =3D3D
> >
>
=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D=
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> > 3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3
> > D=3D3D
> > 20
> > > >
> > > > Perry Qu=3D3D3D20
> > > >
> > > > Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc.
> > > >
> > > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada=3D3D3D20
> > > >
> > > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642=3D3D3D20
> > > >
> > > > Email: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>
=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D=
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> > 3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3
> > D=3D3D
> > =
3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3=
D=3D3D3D3D
> > =3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D
> > > > =3D3D
> >
>
=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D=
3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3
> D=3D
> > 3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3D3D=3D3D3
> > D=3D3D
> > 20
> > > >
> > > > =3D3D3D20
> > > >
> > > > =3D3D20
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of=3D3D3D20
> > > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM
> > > >> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;=3D3D3D20
> > > >> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> Would you like to share a link?=3D3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> Aubrey Sparkman=3D3D3D3D20
> > > >> Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D3D3D3D20 Dell,
> > Inc.=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20
> > > >> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D3D3D3D20
> > > >> (512) 723-3592=3D3D3D3D20
> > > >> "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and=3D3D3D20
> > > >> thinking what nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > > >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > >> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:36 AM
> > > >> To: Russell S. Dudek Jr.; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> We already have a glass weave solution. Check my column
> in=3D3D3D20
> > > >> the April issue of Circuitree magazine.
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> Lee Ritchey
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> [Original Message]
> > > >>> From: Russell S. Dudek Jr. <rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >>> Date: 9/12/2007 1:10:28 PM
> > > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Steve,
> > > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>> I agree, Fiber Weave Effect (FEW) has most certainly
been=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> confirmed by
> > > >> such
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> research. However, there is a new change in the wind.
I=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> have the=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> unique opportunity, as a technical liaison, to enable =
a=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> technology=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> that may put
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> an
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> end to FWE as a consideration in high-speed designs.
We=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> all know that
> > > >> =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> the crux of the matter is the glass weave and its effect
> on=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> localized
> > > >> Er.
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> Either get ride of the reinforcement layer completely or
> > more=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> challenging change the fundamentals of the glass weave
> fabrication
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> process (GWFP).
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>> We have taken the more challenging (and fun) approach and =
=3D3D
> > have=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> rocked=3D3D3D3D20 the fundamentals the GWFP. I cannot =
disclose
> much
> > the=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> specifics of=3D3D3D3D20 the technology and our partners in =
such
> =3D3D
> > an=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> open forum. =3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> However, if=3D3D3D3D20 you are interested learning more feel =
=3D
> > free=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> to contact=3D3D3D20
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> me and we can=3D3D3D3D20 get the proper NDAs in place to =3D3D
> > facilitate=3D3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > >> such a discussion.
> > > >> =3D3D20
> > > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>> RD
> > > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>> Russell Dudek
> > > >>> Technology Specialist
> > > >>> Compunetics, Inc.
> > > >>> 700 Seco Road
> > > >>> Monroeville, PA 15146
> > > >>> 412-858-6264
> > > >>> rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> www.compunetics.com <http://www.compunetics.com/> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To see where no one notices the contrast of white on white is
=3D
> > =3D3D3D
> > > >>> =3D3D20
> > > > an=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20
> > > > =3D3D20
> > > >>> indispensable virtue of infinite potential.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
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> > List technical documents are available at:
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> >
> > List archives are viewable at: =3D20
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > =3D20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> >
> > List technical documents are available at:
> > http://www.si-list.net
> >
> > List archives are viewable at: =20
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > =20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
