Steve, Thanks for the plug! Sometimes the best solutions are the easiest! Lee > [Original Message] > From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> > To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: QU Perry <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: 9/15/2007 12:10:47 PM > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? > > In the shameless plug for someone else dept: Lee's book "Right the > First Time Volume 2" does do a nice job of demonstrating the difference > between various weaves including some good cross-section > microphotographs and TDR plots. I think it is worth the price of the > book for that information alone. > > Steve > Lee Ritchey wrote: > > The link to the Circuitree web site requires each person to register and > > obtain a password. > > > > It is true that the thinner weaves are the problem. > > > > I cover these weaves and results in Chapter 5 of Volume 2 of my book. > > There are photos showing what the weaves look like compared to a 3.5 mil > > trace. Also show what vias do to very fast signals. > > > > Lee Ritchey > > > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: QU Perry <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> To: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Date: 9/14/2007 12:25:54 PM > >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? > >> > >> I would be interested to see a link as well. > >> > >> Jeff's paper on DesignCon2007 is convincing to me that this is something > >> we need to pay attention. Real life design will probably not be as bad > >> as the theoretical estimate since most of the diff pair routing we have > >> on the PCB is not likely to run a long length non-stop in parallel with > >> edge. The "jog" as is called in the paper is very common due to vias etc > >> and pretty random. > >> > >> Also from the data we got from PCB vendor, it appears that thinner > >> dielectric substrate the worse fibre weave effect as the gap between the > >> fiber is larger. Has this been looked at ? > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Perry > >> > >> > >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > > > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > >> > >> Perry Qu=20 > >> > >> Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > >> > >> 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada=20 > >> > >> DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642=20 > >> > >> Email: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 > >> > >> > >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > > > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > >> > >> =20 > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 > >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of=20 > >>> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx > >>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM > >>> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;=20 > >>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? > >>> =20 > >>> Would you like to share a link?=3D20 > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >>> Aubrey Sparkman=3D20 > >>> Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D20 Dell, Inc.=3D20=20 > >>> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D20 > >>> (512) 723-3592=3D20 > >>> "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and=20 > >>> thinking what nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 > >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >>> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey > >>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:36 AM > >>> To: Russell S. Dudek Jr.; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? > >>> =20 > >>> We already have a glass weave solution. Check my column in=20 > >>> the April issue of Circuitree magazine. > >>> =20 > >>> Lee Ritchey > >>> =20 > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>> [Original Message] > >>>> From: Russell S. Dudek Jr. <rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> Date: 9/12/2007 1:10:28 PM > >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? > >>>> > >>>> Steve, > >>>> =3D20 > >>>> I agree, Fiber Weave Effect (FEW) has most certainly been=20 > >>>> > >>> confirmed by > >>> such > >>> > >>>> research. However, there is a new change in the wind. I=20 > >>>> > >>> have the=3D20=20 > >>> > >>>> unique opportunity, as a technical liaison, to enable a=20 > >>>> > >>> technology=3D20=20 > >>> > >>>> that may put > >>>> > >>> an > >>> > >>>> end to FWE as a consideration in high-speed designs. We=20 > >>>> > >>> all know that > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>> the crux of the matter is the glass weave and its effect on=20 > >>>> > >>> localized > >>> Er. > >>> > >>>> Either get ride of the reinforcement layer completely or more=3D20=20 > >>>> challenging change the fundamentals of the glass weave fabrication > >>>> > >>> process (GWFP). > >>> > >>>> =3D20 > >>>> We have taken the more challenging (and fun) approach and have=20 > >>>> rocked=3D20 the fundamentals the GWFP. I cannot disclose much the=20 > >>>> specifics of=3D20 the technology and our partners in such an=20 > >>>> > >>> open forum. =20 > >>> > >>>> However, if=3D20 you are interested learning more feel free=20 > >>>> > >>> to contact=20 > >>> > >>>> me and we can=3D20 get the proper NDAs in place to facilitate=20 > >>>> > >>> such a discussion. > >>> > >>>> =3D20 > >>>> RD > >>>> =3D20 > >>>> Russell Dudek > >>>> Technology Specialist > >>>> Compunetics, Inc. > >>>> 700 Seco Road > >>>> Monroeville, PA 15146 > >>>> 412-858-6264 > >>>> rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> www.compunetics.com <http://www.compunetics.com/> =3D20 > >>>> > >>>> To see where no one notices the contrast of white on white is = > >>>> > >> an=3D20=20 > >> > >>>> indispensable virtue of infinite potential. > >>>> > >>>> =3D20 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: > >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=20 > 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