[SI-LIST] Re: anlog and digital power plane isolation with ferrite bead good idea?

Steve that is a good point.  Dong, in my experience the most difficult piece of 
the design (of late, all my designs) is getting the requirements out of the 
vendors.  I use a common spreadsheet that I customize for each chip.  I then 
ask the vendor to fill in all the blanks for me and those blanks are P/S ripple 
requirements over which frequencies that their chips is guaranteed to work.  
With that, you have the requirements feeding into your PDS design as Steve 
mentions.  In one case I did have to meet a 0.5% ripple requirement (yeah, not 
a typo although I didn't believe it) so I did add one RC filter to a low 
current pin.  But that has only been once in the last 5 designs I did.

I am empathetic with you because the vendor climb as described above is very 
steep (and for me, I still haven't reached the top... :-) ).  At this point I 
would say slightly better than half of the vendors now give me this information.

Regards,

Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: steve weir [mailto:weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 1:08 PM
To: Dan Smith
Cc: Lee Ritchey; Dong Kim; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Istvan Novak; liuluping 41830
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: anlog and digital power plane isolation with ferrite 
bead good idea?

Dan, ferrite beads are way too often used where they are not needed, and
are way too often applied without proper consideration to managing their
side-effects.  This frequently gets people into trouble, and likely
contributed to the failure you experienced.

The problem Dong presents includes lack of: requirements specification,
design information, and expertise on the part of Dong.  Dong's
misgivings may well be justified.  However, if Dong goes ahead and
designs a PDN without working against a set of requirements, if he is
successful it will only be by happenstance.  That neither vindicates,
nor refutes his colleague's design.

If Dong's colleague has done his homework, then Dong's colleague can
show Dong that:

1. The design meets a stated set of requirements obtained either from
vendor specifications, and/or measurements.
2. The use of ferrite beads made it easier to meet those requirements.

The places where ferrite beads make sense are very distinct.  Usually,
no more than casual inspection of PDN requirements immediately indicate
whether a ferrite bead based filter is worth considering.  Assuming that
Dong's colleague did his homework, it should be very easy for him to
point Dong at the requirements that led to use of a ferrite bead and to
challenge Dong to find a better alternate solution.  If on the other
hand, the PDN engineer has simply followed a cookbook recipe then
whether the design works or not depends on how well that recipe
encompasses the variables such as:  component placement, stack-up, and
other loads on the same power rail(s) in the implementation.

Steve.

Dan Smith wrote:
> Dong,
>
> The best way to convince him, perhaps, is to ignore his advice and do a 
> proper PDS design like you want to.  Then, when the results come in prove it 
> to him based on your evidence.  I have been doing 3GIG and 10GIG SERDES 
> designs for 8 years and only used ferrite beads once.  That was my first 
> SERDES design and I too followed advice of someone else - It was also the 
> only time my SERDES design didn't work!  Since, I have never used a ferrite 
> bead (initially ignoring several people and doing my own engineering) and 
> have been successful for the last 7 years - including across backplanes.  The 
> key, though, is performing a PDS (which includes instantaneous currents and a 
> stable power supply) and not just simply removing the ferrite beads.
>
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 9:44 AM
> To: Dong Kim; steve weir; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Istvan Novak; liuluping 41830
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anlog and digital power plane isolation with ferrite 
> bead good idea?
>
> Dong,
> I have attached a PDS design program from Altera.  Notice that it does not
> include any ferrite beads.  same kind of thing is available from Xilinx.
>
> Yes, old applications notes from both Altera an Xilinx said to use ferrite
> beads.  This was never good advice and has finally been taken from their app
> notes, but not before may engineers got conned into using ferrite beads.
>
> Lee
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Dong Kim" <kimdongsik_us@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 4:03 PM
> To: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "steve weir"
> <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "Istvan Novak" <istvan.novak@xxxxxxx>; "liuluping 41830"
> <liuluping@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [SI-LIST] anlog and digital power plane isolation with ferrite bead
> good idea?
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My colleague, a PDN engineer, insist he has to use ferrite bead to isolate
>> an analog power plane from digital plane for an large FPGA I am using on a
>> PCB design.
>> I have been trying to convince him it would be better to have good
>> decoupling filter by adding inner-plane capacitance and decoupling caps.
>>
>> But, he is insisting I should prove it either by theory or simulation
>> before he can change his mind to remove the isolation ferrite bid and add
>> planer cap in my board stack-up.  I could not really prove by methodical
>> thory nor have time and tool to simulate.
>>
>> With my shallow  knowledge, it will just end with arguing even if he agree
>> to do what I tell him to do.
>> My knowledge is  from my past board design with similar characteristics, I
>> did not use the ferrite to isolate the analog and digital power planes.
>> It worked fine.
>> I also has shown him Lee Ritch's 2nd volume of "Right the first time".
>> But, I guess it did not convince him.
>>
>> Please someone explain why analog and digital power isolation by using may
>> be not a good idea.
>>
>> Please help.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dong S. Kim
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>>
>> List technical documents are available at:
>>                http://www.si-list.net
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>  http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.net
>
> List archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
>


--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
150 N. Center St. #211
Reno, NV  89501
www.ipblox.com

(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax


------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.net

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
 
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
  

Other related posts: