Jim, I realized that I'm a bit jump to the conclusion. Are these two cables you listed using the same wire gauge? ( I assume their insulators' dielectric constants are different.) Thanks,Neo --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Neo <neoflash2008@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Neo <neoflash2008@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Why shielded twisted-pair is still twisted? To: "Jim Nadolny" <jim.nadolny@xxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "List Si" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 11:41 PM Jim, I do appreciate your data based answer and comments. That's really helpful. I'm wondering these days that how well can STP perform. As long as it can be manufactured to be uniform along the cable, it should perform well. However, STP should be more lossy than twin-ax since the twisted wire increases the total copper length that the signal need to travel through. Your data confirmed this hypothesis. Thanks,Neo --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Jim Nadolny <jim.nadolny@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Jim Nadolny <jim.nadolny@xxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Why shielded twisted-pair is still twisted? To: "Neo" <neoflash2008@xxxxxxxxx> Cc: "List Si" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 7:46 PM We make some HDMI cables with different cable types (STP and twinax). It's a little surprising (to me anyway) how well the STP assemblies perform. Sure, there is more loss (return loss and insertion loss) with the STP cable, and when the performance goes bad, it really goes bad. But crosstalk is about the same and the STP price is lower than twinax as it's a lot easier to manufacture. If you dig into the raw cable performance you see some marked differences, but at the assembly level some of those differences fade due to the effects of the connector and termination. You can check out some cable assembly level test data on our website if you are into it http://www.samtec.com/Documents/WebFiles/testrpt/hsc-report_hplsp_web.pd f http://www.samtec.com/Documents/WebFiles/testrpt/hsc-report_HPSTP_web.pd f Jim N -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:56 PM To: Neo Cc: List Si Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Why shielded twisted-pair is still twisted? Twin ax is not just two insulated wires inside a common shield. Proper twin ax tightly controls the dimensions preferably by suspending both conductors in one homogenous jacket that is then shielded. An alternate approximation is two coaxial leads each with their own unjacketed shield, where that shield is then in contact with an outer shield. In both cases the dielectric properties between each conductor and the outer shield are well controlled as are the properties between the conductors. A shielded pair is just two jacketed conductors inside a common shield. The dimensions and physical consistency are mediocre at best. Twisting the leads makes the combination closer to isotropic but is nowhere near as good as proper twin ax. Steve. Neo wrote: > Steve, > I agree that twisting will make the cable more balance if the shielding is ideal. However, I think twist will make the shielding more difficult to be uniform along the cable. Therefore, impact impedance's consistency. > Is it true? > Neo > --- On Mon, 5/10/10, steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Why shielded twisted-pair is still twisted? > To: "Neo" <neoflash2008@xxxxxxxxx> > Cc: "List Si" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 10:53 PM > > STP is not twin ax. STP do not have individual shields. Twisting > makes the parasitics more isotropic. > > Steve > Neo wrote: > >> Hi, >> I'm thinking about why shielded twisted-pair is still twisted? >> Pair is twisted for controlled distance/impedance (due to twist) and for x-talk reduction. If a pair is already shielded together, it is not necessary to twist them any more. >> Without twist, it will be equivalent to twin-ax cable, isn't that better? >> Thanks,Neo >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu