[SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best

We use XTK and one of its important features from our perspective is a 
well documented ASCII text simulation database.

Some of the advantages of such a database are:
1. Flexibility: With some scripting, it is possible to create and 
simulate complex structures that the tool was not intended to directly 
support.

2. Bug fix/work around: When you encounter a software bug that is a show 
stopper for you but is not a high priority for the tool's user base,  it 
is unlikely to be fixed by the vendor. With an ASCII database, you can 
usually fix it or create a work around and move on.

3. Trouble shooting: When the results don't make sense, it is easier to 
poke around an ASCII database to figure out the problem.

While tight integration of a simulation tool with the PCB database may 
be desirable, one of the advantages of XTK (which is not linked to any 
particular PCB design tool) seems to be smaller database size. Since the 
tool only extracts the electrically relevant information from the PCB 
database, the simulation database is smaller and this may be a concern 
for large multi-board simulations.

Thanks,
Vinu

Peterson, James F (FL51) wrote:

>Oscar,
>
>I have been asked this exact question off-line, and have responded to it
>off-line. (I will send you that response.)
>
>I don't think it would be fare to discuss it on-line without including all
>the other tools out there. This list has got to be fertile ground for SI
>customers. You know there are a lot of app' engineers and sales engineers
>from all of the SI tools monitoring this thread (and others like it). They
>have been very restrained while this exchange has gone on. 
>
>How about we re-direct the SI-list question to this :
>What are some of the things one should look for when evaluating an SI tool? 
>
>This could be very helpful to shoppers and also fare to the sellers.
>
>-Jim
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ahmad Fallah [mailto:emcesd2000@xxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:56 PM
>To: james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
>
>
>Hello Jim,
> 
>I read from your email that ICX is not that hard to learn/use anymore.
>Would you elaborate on your opinion?  Would you care to provide a brief
>pros/cons summary of the two tools, similar to Ravinder's?  I understand
>that this will be based on your and your colleagues' experience with these
>tools.
> 
>Thanks,
>Oscar 
> 
>
>"Peterson, James F (FL51)" <james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>I find comments such as those of Ravinder Ajmani to be exactly the
>right kind of comments - 
>
>
>The only problem I have with Ravinder's comments is that there are 25
>proficient users of Internconnectix here at Honeywell who would say he is
>very wrong about his 10 year old opinion regarding ICX's "steep learning
>curve". (And we also own Hyperlynx.)
>
>The problem with this type of discussion is it can mis-represent products
>and most of it is opinion-based. Comparing this subject with other SI
>subjects which are less opinions and more facts, I can understand why folks
>would like to limit the discussion.
>
>best regards,
>Jim
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sol Tatlow [mailto:Sol.Tatlow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:22 AM
>To: cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Mohanty, Girish C. (UMR-Student);
>Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx; dan.crain@xxxxxxx
>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
>
>
>My penny's worth: if an SI-list is NOT the right place for a
>discussion on SI tools, where is ?!?
>
>It may be true that as a student you have free access to such
>software. It may also be true that you can get 30 day trial licenses
>to be able to 'try them out'.
>
>But let's be honest: these are not java-based over-the-internet demo
>games that you can 'play with' for 10 minutes, and know whether it's
>going to be the right one for you. My experience is that to fully test
>such a program, you could easily need 1 to 2+ weeks, and to test 4 or
>more pieces of software - who on EARTH has that kind of time?!?
>
>I find comments such as those of Ravinder Ajmani to be exactly the
>right kind of comments - no sales person is going to tell you these
>kinds of problems, and it might take weeks to discover these yourself,
>although they could be critical to your own use of a particular package.
>These comments help someone to narrow the choice down in fore-field,
>so as to only have to evaluate one tool, at the most perhaps 2.
>
>Comments such as Dan Crain's are also exactly on the button: if you
>don't like a particular thread, 'sort by subject' in Outlook (or
>similar) and hit delete, for crying out loud!
>____________________________________
>Sol Tatlow, M.Eng. (Oxon)
>ProDesign Electronic & CAD Layout GmbH
>Product Developer
>Albert-Mayer-Str. 16
>D-83052 Bruckmuehl
>Phone: +49 (0) 8062-808-302
>Fax: +49 (0) 8062-808-333
>Mailto:sol.tatlow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.prodesign-europe.com
>____________________________________=20
>
>
>-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Charles Grasso [mailto:cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2004 04:16
>An: Mohanty, Girish C. (UMR-Student); Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx; =
>si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Betreff: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
>
>
>OK you asked:
>As a former employee of a SI tool vendor I know that the design =
>environment
>is critically important to the success or lack thereof of any simulation
>tool. More often than not you get experience based on a limted set of
>conditions and typically the tool vendors, who monitor this list, do not
>respond in a public forum. Instead of trying to get cheap answers do =
>your
>own homework and decide for your self. BTW as a student you get access =
>to
>simulation tools for FREE typically ... you would be in a much bettr
>position to make your own decisions.
>
>So discussions vis a vis the relative worth of a tool is pointless and
>unfair to the many and excellent tool vendors.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mohanty, Girish C. (UMR-Student) [mailto:gcm6w3@xxxxxxx]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 5:31 PM
>To: cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx;
>si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
>
>
>Dear Members:
>
>My e-mail has reference to the text appended herewith.
>
>Just wanted to know in my small wisdom as to what is wrong with a tools
>related discussion. I am sure this is a pure SI related discussion going
>on, and its healthy as well.
>
>Thanks,
>Girish C Mohanty
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of Charles Grasso
>Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 8:20 PM
>To: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
>
>
>OK - thats enough. Please contact the various manufacturers and try the
>tools yourself. The pick the tool that best suits your environment. No
>more tool analysis pleeeease....
>
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