[SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
- From: <dan.crain@xxxxxxx>
- To: <cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx>,<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:34:50 -0700
Those who wish to stifle info sharing or threads that bore you pleeeease =
just press delete like the rest of do in this situation.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Grasso [mailto:cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 6:20 PM
To: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
OK - thats enough. Please contact the various manufacturers and try the
tools yourself. The pick the tool that best suits your environment. No =
more
tool analysis pleeeease....
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:48 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
I got in to Signal Integrity work around mid-nineties. At that time, we
had a Cadence SigNoise license. The software version had many bugs and =
I
got frustrated after trying it for a few times. The set up was really
cumbersome, as our logic symbols were not designed with many SigNoise
parameters. I looked at other tools, such as XTK (then owned by
ViewLogic), Interconnectix (then an independent company), UniCad, =
Pacific
Numerix, as well as Cadence BoardQuest. I really liked XTK and
Interconnectix, but found that both had steep learning curve. Since SI
was only a small part of my total work, I could not justify spending =
weeks
learning a tool, which I may best use once in a month or two months.
It was then I came across a demo version of HyperLynx (which was also
independent then), and developed an instant liking for it because of its
ease of use. Within minutes, I was able to start simulation on a board. =
I
bought a node locked license of HyperSuite (including BoardSim and
LineSim), and have been using them ever since. Later when HyperLynx =
came
out with Crosstalk module, I was one of their Beta testers. The =
software
has grown in features and performance, and can no longer be considered a
low-end tool. Its ease of use is just superb, and LineSim is a great =
tool
for pre-layout simulations. That said, I have a few gripes about it.
1) The simulation step size is selected by the program (what Kellee =
calls
"expert system automation"). This sometimes causes problem when
simulating a driver with very fast slew rate. One driver I use in our
design often causes high-frequency oscillations. I had taken up this
issue with the support people but could not get a resolution mainly
because there is no user control on step size.
2) If one is using resistor packs as series terminators for a data bus,
then the input and output pins for resistors always get scrambled. Thus
you will end up simulating two different nets, one from the driver to
resistor, and a totally different net from resistor to the receiver.
3) The EMI module can not simulate differential nets.
4) Batch mode requires that models be attached to the ICs being =
simulated.
When an IBIS model is assigned to an IC, the default mode is receiver.
One has to select every pin individually to change the mode to driver.
Perhaps there is a simpler way that I am not aware of.
Currently, I am also using Cadence SPECCTRAQuest a lot for my simulation
work. This tool has improved a lot from the SigNoise days. Since we =
use
Cadence front-end and back-end tools, there is no need for translation.
SPECCTRAQuest has definitely more features than HyperLynx, and a much
better waveform display. Differential signal simulation is also very
good, and I find batch simulation very useful. My main issue with
SPECCTRAQuest is that unlike HyperLynx, I can't assign a single buffer =
to
one pin of an ASIC. I have to create a model for the complete ASIC =
before
I can run simulation. I can't export a net to SigXplorer unless I have
models assigned to drivers and receivers. By the way, SigXplorer is not
as flexible as HyperLynx LineSim, since I can't build my own stackup. =
Also
at times during crosstalk simulation, simulator shows no crosstalk =
whereas
I can clearly see parallel nets at close spacing. These same nets =
produce
significant crosstalk, when simulated on HyperLynx.
Overall, I find HyperLynx and SPECCTRAQuest as a good complementary pair
of tools, since each one has its strong points as well as weaknesses.
Regards, Ravinder
Server PCB Development
Hitachi Global Storage Technologies
Email: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
Dan Bostan <dbostan@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
04/14/2004 11:42 AM
Please respond to dbostan
To: kelleecrisafulli@xxxxxxxxxxx, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
cc:
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Which tool is the best
A bird told me that the "new" Hyperlynx incorporates
now the XTK/Quad engine, which Mentor got from
Viewlogic/Innoveda, which was very, very good.
As you may see on the Mentor's web site, the XTK is
downplayed nowadays, and Hyperlynx is heavily
promoted, for good reasons...
/dan
--- Kellee Crisafulli <kelleecrisafulli@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I often hear comments like the one below which seems
> to be based on here-say
> heard from a sales person as opposed to real user
> feedback on the current
> version of the tool:
>
> " I would have said that Hyperlynx is a low-end tool
> as well, although I
> understand that it's come
> a long way in the last few years"
>
> For example to say the Hyperlynx Si tools are
> low-end may have been true in
> 1991
> but saying that today is like saying Harley Davidson
> makes low end motorcycles.
>
> Many features in Hyperlynx are "best-in-class" for
> example I feel the
> cross-talk feature may be more
> advanced than any other tool in the market because
> of it's ability to
> automatically
> identify the net's that need to be included in the
> simulation. Most other
> tools in the market require
> the user to "guess" which nets needs need to be
> included by specifying a
> distance around the signal
> being analyzed. Even the best SI engineers cannot
> "guess" correctly all
> the time. Having a tool with the
> expert system built in to determine the required
> nets is very powerful.
>
> All SI tools have dozen's of settings that determine
> the details of how the
> simulation will be created.
> Many people forget about these settings when they
> use the tools. As a
> result some times the results are not as accurate as
> desired. HyperLynx
> has expert-system automation for many of these
> settings resulting in much
> more accurate
> simulations by people that do not use the tools
> every day.
>
> Since being acquired by Pads then Innoveda, and now
> Mentor the HyperLynx
> tool has been improved each time it was acquired by
> choosing some of the
> best technologies available within the new parent
> company.
>
> I don't believe there is "best tool" in the market
> some tools have better
> batch mode features
> some have better user interfaces, some have complex
> automation which
> safe-guards the user (like HyperLynx).
> Some tools are only 2D or 2.5D while others are full
> 3D analyzers.
> A 2D tool uses a 2 dimensional field analyzer to
> create the simulation. A
> full 3D tool (when enabled for 3D)
> will use a full 3D analysis (generally VERY SLOW)
> and very accurate.
> Still other tools have features for power supply or
> RF analysis that are
> best in class.
> And to complicate matters even more the tools are
> constantly evolving.
>
> 1) I urge people to refrain from comments about
> tools based on 3 to 10 year
> old information received from
> a competing sales person.
> If you have concrete information based on your
> own work with a tool
> than by all means share it.
> 2) A "best tool" is the one that reliably get's your
> job done in a timely
> manor.
> 3) If only HyperLynx had that nice Harley Davidson
> rumble driving out of
> the parking lot it would be really great :)
>
> My bias (for those who do not know me):
> This is is a biased comment from one of the author's
> of the HyperLynx tool
> and a founder of the IBIS group.
>
> best regards,
> Kellee Crisafulli
>
> At 12:37 AM 4/14/2004, you wrote:
> >I would have said that Hyperlynx is a low-end
> >tool as well, although I understand that it's come
> >a long way in the last few years.
> >
> >I'm most familiar with SpecctraQuest, and I highly
> >recommend it. It's my impression that ICX is
> comparable
> >in every way.
> >
> >SpecctraQuest is particularly recommended if you
> >are using Allegro for board design, since there is
> no
> >translation procedure required for moving the board
> >database into SpecctraQuest in that case.
> >
> >
> >On Apr 13, 2004, at 10:51 PM, Dan Bostan wrote:
> >
> > > Hyperlynx, ICX and Spectraquest.
> > > Protel is a low end tool, good only for small
> PCB
> > > designs.
> > > /dan
> > >
> > > --- Tayyab Jamil <tayyab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> Can any one seggest me the good and reliable
> tools
> > >> for signal integrity
> > >> simulations? Also how do you people rate PROTEL
> 99
> > >> SE for PCB designing and
> > >> signal integrity simulations?
> > >>
> > >> Tayyab Jamil Qureshi
> > >>
> > >> Sr. Design Engineer
> > >> CARE Pvt. Ltd.
> > >> 19 Attaturk Avenu, G-5/1
> > >> Islamabad, Pakistan
> > >> Phone: +92 51 2874794
> > >> +92 51 2874115
> > >> Fax: +92 51 2874614
> > >> Cell: +92 300 9506986
> > >> email: tayyab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
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