[SI-LIST] Re: UltraCAD ESR and Bypass Capacitor Caculator

> From there on up it takes a good plane capacitor.

For the very high freq (even starting around 150MHz) return 
current or PDS supply current, the plane cap just doesn't 
have the C/area to provide the needed charge.  The chip 
and pkg must provide the C in these cases.  

The main goal is to achieve lowest L, hence lowest 
broadband Z, for the decaps and plane pairs!  I would call 
that "a good plane capacitor" in this case.  The cap's C 
is no longer available: its ESL dominates and the planes' C 
ain't big enough.  

-hopefully more than 2 cents worth,
John

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lee Ritchey 
  To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Abe Riazi 
  Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:13 PM
  Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: UltraCAD ESR and Bypass Capacitor Caculator


  Abe,
   
  If you remember the UMR paper on power bus decoupling, it made a clear case
  that the location of the capacitors is relatively unimportant. Capacitors,
  no matter how well you mount them don't work at frequencies much above 150
  MHz. From there on up it takes a good plane capacitor. I spent quite a bit
  of time in class illustrating how to calculate the size of the plane
  capacitor.
   
  Doug's calculator is useful, but of limited value. It does show you how
  capacitors interact with each other.   I'll have a tool available in the
  late fall that will do about the same job as the Cadence tool. However, it
  will be far less expensive than that.
   
  Hope this helps.
   
  Lee
   

  Lee Ritchey
  leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Why Wait?  Move to EarthLink.


  > [Original Message]
  > From: Abe Riazi <ariazi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > Date: 7/31/2003 11:18:35 AM
  > Subject: [SI-LIST] UltraCAD ESR and Bypass Capacitor Caculator
  >
  > Dear Lee,
  > Please recall that when I was attending your course, we had a brief
  > discussion regarding the UltraCAD's ESR and Bypass Capacitor Calculator.
  >
  > I have purchased a license of the program (it costs $75.00).
  >
  > The program can help to determine the  optimum
  > number (and values) of bypass capacitors required for a high-speed design
  board.
  >
  > Douglas Brooks has written a paper, "ESR and Bypass Capacitor Self
  Resonant 
  > Behavior How to Select Bypass Caps" which describes how to apply
  > the calculator.  One point emphasized by his paper is that to achieve
  > optimum decoupling one needs to use a range of values of decoupling
  > caps (example, some 1uF caps, some 0.1uF caps, some 0.01uF caps
  > with low ESL) rather than just a single value of capacitor. The objective
  > being to produce a flat low PDS impendace over a specified broad frequency
  > bandwidth.
  >
  > On the other hand, I have noted that many engineers have a different
  > view in that they believe a SINGLE value of capacitor
  >  (such as 0.1uF  0603 (or 0805) package with X7R dielectric ceramic chips)
  > should be used for ALL high frequency decoupling capacitors on the PCB.
  >
  > The UltraCAD calculator does not provide any information related
  > to the best required location for the decoupling caps.
  >
  > The calculator also does not account for the distributed nature
  > and frequency dependent loss of power planes (which can be
  > important at frequencies exceeding 100 MHz.)
  >
  > Subsequently, it seems to me that UltraCAD ESR and Bypass
  > Capacitor Calculator can be a useful tool for learning and
  > experimenting with various decoupling strategies, but
  > probably lacks the accuracy that the Cadence PDS tools
  > can offer (of course, the Cadence PDS tools are also significantly
  > more expensive).
  >
  > I also have two questions:
  >
  > 1. In your opinion, in order  to achieve optimum high frequency
  >  decoupling, is it necessary to use several different
  > values of ceramic caps (e.g. some 1.0 uF, some 0.1uF
  > some 0.01uF ceramic chips) or is it preferable to use just a 
  > single value (such as 0.1uF) for ALL the decoupling caps on the PCB ?
  >
  > 2. Is it sufficiently accurate to determine the optimum location of
  decoupling caps by applying
  > rules of thumb or is it necessary to simulate?
  >
  > Thank you in advance for your reply.
  >
  > Abe
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
  > -- Type: application/ms-tnef
  >
  >
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