[SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold finger areas

Jeff, yes I think we are pretty close now.  Consider that instead of shear 
cutting, we can take care of the excess capacitance by dropping the density 
of the plane with a specifically engineered void pattern.  Then we go 
without any abrupt discontinuities and their attendant "benefits".  These 
improvements are strictly etch management on the cards and do not require 
any change to the connectors.

Regards,


Steve.

At 09:51 AM 6/16/2005 -0700, Loyer, Jeff wrote:
>Nice job on a concise summary - sounds like we're getting clear on what
>we mean.
>
>I would clarify point 3, lest folks overstate the crosstalk issue. I
>have only said that I didn't measure any INCREASE in crosstalk when
>comparing cases with a full ground to those with the ground trimmed back
>(half-way up the fingers, in my case).  As far as characterizing the
>existing crosstalk as "significant" or not, I'd say that it's not
>trivial (not in the noise region) and should be included in a simulation
>model.  By that definition, it's "significant".  I don't know how it
>rates relative to other crosstalk sources.
>
>I agree with the statement that "there are more optimal ways to maintain
>the impedance than shear cutting the return plane" (though I think that
>might make it sound worse than it is).  There are tons of them, and I'm
>certain future connectors will look different than existing ones to take
>advantage of them.  I am only offering an explanation for why the
>grounds are trimmed and saying that, from my measurements, it seems like
>a viable optimization for the frequencies of interest (it also happens
>to be an easy optimization to make, which makes it very appealing).  I'd
>be very surprised to find out that the recommendation to trim the ground
>plane was rescinded based on failures due to crosstalk or EMI.
>
>Cheers,
>Jeff Loyer
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: steve weir [mailto:weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:16 AM
>To: Loyer, Jeff; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold
>finger areas
>
>Jeff, thanks for the clarification.  So, summarizing, I think you are
>saying that:
>
>1. The trimming process removes what was a stub in the return image
>plane,
>2. The signal pattern of gnd sig sig gnd ... reduces the crosstalk
>opportunity to mostly the single neighbor,
>3. There is already significant crosstalk.
>
>I think Scott's point is that there are more optimal ways to maintain
>the
>impedance than shear cutting the return plane.  Those methods let us
>extend
>useable bandwidth because they aggravate crosstalk less, while still
>maintaining at the macro level both even and odd mode impedances.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Steve.
>
>
>At 08:50 AM 6/16/2005 -0700, Loyer, Jeff wrote:
> >Sorry if it seemed like I made some kind of blanket statement that
> >altering the image plane never makes a difference in crosstalk.  I
>meant
> >to apply the statement only for this particular case - ground plane
> >under the gold fingers of an FBD connector.  Before performing the
> >measurements, I wouldn't have bet tons of money that the crosstalk to
> >the other side of the connector wouldn't increase appreciably (though I
> >didn't think it would).  My measurements showed it didn't.
> >
> >I want to also note that I am not responsible for the generic FBD
> >recommendation to cut back those fingers.  My specific area of interest
> >involved a connector we enabled for Logic Analyzers.  I assume,
>however,
> >that the folks responsible for the generic solution had similar
> >experience to mine.  I offered an affirmation to the original
> >question/answer based on similar personal experience.
> >
> >I believe the reason we don't see much increase in crosstalk is due to
> >the fact that: 1) the connector makes contact above where the ground
> >plane is trimmed back, 2) the majority of the return current at this
> >point is through the coplanar fingers, and 3) the path was already so
> >disrupted...  Mostly conjecture, based on trying to "Be the signal" (as
> >Eric would say - maybe his next book will be "The inner game of
>S.I."?).
> >
> >
> >Jeff Loyer
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: steve weir [mailto:weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:58 AM
> >To: Loyer, Jeff; kalevi@xxxxxxxxxx; Cortex.Chen@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> >si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold
> >finger areas
> >
> >Jeff, I agree that big pads translate to significant capacitance and
> >without compensation, impedance dips.  But I am quite wary of your
> >blanket
> >statement declaring no increase in crosstalk when we alter the image
> >plane.  To believe that, I would have to think either that there is
> >another
> >path(s) back to the original return that does not involve nearby signal
> >traces, or that the path was already so badly disrutpted by other
> >problems
> >that the crosstalk just can't get much worse.  Do you see something
> >different?
> >
> >Steve.
> >At 02:49 PM 6/15/2005 -0700, Loyer, Jeff wrote:
> > >This agrees with my knowledge/experience.  Big pads look like WIDE =
> > >traces which equals very low impedance, compared to 50ohm traces.
>Some
> >=
> > >of that can be reduced by trimming back the ground plane below the
> >pads. =
> > >  Experiments showed no increase in crosstalk with the ground planes
>=
> > >trimmed back.
> > >
> > >Jeff Loyer
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
> > >On Behalf Of Kai Keskinen
> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:39 PM
> > >To: Cortex.Chen@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold
>finger
> >=
> > >areas
> > >
> > >I would think it is to reduce the capacitance so that the signals
>don't
> >=
> > >see
> > >a big localized impedance change.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cortex Chen
> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:17 AM
> > >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >Subject: [SI-LIST] To remove reference planes under the gold finger
> > >areas
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear SI experts,
> > >I'm working to design a FB-DIMM add-in card. To recall previous =
> > >experiences
> > >for PCI-E, I'm confused why it's recommended to remove reference
>planes
> > >under the gold finger areas of an add-in card. In detail, refer to =
> > >section
> > >2.3.2.6 (page 28 ~ 29) of PCI Express Design Guide (rev. no, 0.5, =
> > >12978).
> > >Who can tell me what the main reason is?
> > >
> > >By the way, refer to section 6.11.10 (page 417 ~ 418) from Howard =
> > >Johnson's
> > >new book, I like to quote some sentences for your reference as below:
> > >"......In a differential-pcb pair, most of the returning current from
>=
> > >each
> > >trace still flows on the solid plane, not the other trace, because
>each
> > >differential trace couples much more strongly to the big, solid
>nearby
> >=
> > >plane
> > >than it does to its little, skinny differential buddy....".
> > >
> > >If it's true, then it will cause some effects like "Differential =
> > >U-Turn"?
> > >Please give me your comments.
> > >
> > >Thanks & Sincerely
> > >
> > >   Cortex Chen   =B3=AF=A5=C3=AAN
> > >
> > >
> > >
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