[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
- From: "Aubrey Sparkman" <asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'steve weir'" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:04:48 -0500
Tom, YOU are the man! You got it!
Aubrey Sparkman
512-461-6165
asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 10:56 PM
To: 'Aubrey Sparkman'; 'steve weir'
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource
IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Pogo
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed(R) Labs
13610 SW Harness Lane
Beaverton, OR 97008
503-430-1065
503-430-1285 FAX
tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
401-284-1827
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Aubrey Sparkman
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 8:02 PM
To: 'steve weir'
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Steve,
Even testing with an EDA tool isn't always sufficient. If you will permit
another PCI-X example... A model with bogus clamps will work with most EDA
tools and even give good results for most cases, but when the clamps need to
be right....
I too, would love to see the special interest groups provide models to
demonstrate the functionality of their interface spec, but I've never seen
that happen. In this case, "we have seen the enemy and it is us".... For
extra points, can anyone identify the source of this paraphrase?
Aubrey Sparkman
512-461-6165
asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of steve weir
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 8:55 PM
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Aubrey, a couple of thoughts:
1. Passing the golden parser is only one check box. I think that would be
the bare minimum requirement to even list a model.
2. Tested working with any given EDA tool is another check box for any given
model. I would kind of expect that any responsible silicon vendor would at
least test that their models work with one vendor. My experience is that
happens a lot less than I would like. A couple of the nice things about the
Teraspeed IBIS models that come out of Tom Dagostino's measure based
operation is that the models are all tested in Hyperlynx before they go out.
The vendor alternative to providing tested models is a lot of unnecessary
FAE expense, customer aggravation, and potentially delayed shipments.
If a silicon vendor can show that their model is good to go with one EDA
tool, then that should provide motive to the remaining EDA vendors to test
for compatibility. Where cracks occur vendors can decide whether to try and
work with the silicon vendors and/or figure out why their EDA tool is
unhappy.
3. I think the special interest groups that define these various specs would
be well advised and well served to develop and distribute compliance models.
The models don't have to be free, but they should be available from the
people defining the standard. One would hope that such models are part and
parcel of the specification development process to make sure at least the
physical layer is sane.
Best Regards,
Steve.
Aubrey Sparkman wrote:
> I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is
sufficient. I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that
are not realistic.
>
> While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered
IP, there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject
to IP. Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model
that reflected the PCI-X buffer specification. Using that model was, in
most cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it
enabled me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X
specification would work in my system.
>
> Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current
interfaces such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc?
>
> Aubrey Sparkman
> 512-461-6165
> asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of steve weir
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: ibis-users@xxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
>
> The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records
of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA.
>
> The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the
breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough market
value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create
automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within
the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I
think for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot
impose any substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon
vendors.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Steve.
> Lynne D. Green wrote:
>
>>
>> Steve and Colin,
>>
>> The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee
>> (who are representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report
>> models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone
>> could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with
>> comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that
would be the vendor's job.
>>
>> Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And
>> only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true)
>> point about IP protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of
>> our "neutral" review service to get on this list.)
>>
>> Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material:
>> articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS
>> parser, specs, cookbook, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Lynne
>>
>> Lynne Green
>> Chair
>> IBIS Model Review Committee
>>
>>
>> steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like
>> structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much
>> exposure to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious
criticism.
>> We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in
>> tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product
>> adoption by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a
>> world where NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it
>> nearly impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such
>> a public and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going
to come of this it would have to be either of the form of:
>> a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor
>> participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third
>> party such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be).
>> Best regards, Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes,
>> IP and updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a
>> directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not
>> the models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK
>> scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager,
>> Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2]
-----Original Message----- From:
>> si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[3]
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir;
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[5] Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[6]; ibis@xxxxxxx[7];
>> ibis-users@xxxxxxx[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
>> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
>> wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or
>> the copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of
>> said when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI ?
>> -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[9]
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
>> Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[11] Cc:
>> bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[12]; ibis@xxxxxxx[13]; ibis-users@xxxxxxx[14] Subject:
>> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
>> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is
>> so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is
>> not particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the
administration.
>> In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who
>> will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk.
Best Regards, Steve.
>> colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the
>> feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with
>> pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis
>> e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] *
>> Discussion forums (bulletin
>> boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] *
>> Email reflectors like the si-list //freelists.org[18] * Shared
>> document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet.
>> http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave
>> http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation"
>> email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with
>> each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but
>> email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard
>> to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. *
>> WYSIWYG versus markup
>> languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language.
>> * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom"
>> (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's
imperative):
>> **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the
>> editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion
>> page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas **
>> Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader
>> has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the
>> (possibly heated)
>> conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable
>> for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info
>> to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to
>> prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? *
>> History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete
"bad" postings? * Who pays?
>> There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we
>> want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split
the check?
>> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database
>> schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in
>> (possibly
>> interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come
>> to a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and
>> benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
>> -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards,
>> -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>> -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[22]
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson
Sent:
>> Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[24] Subject:
>> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
>> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I
>> think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much
>> time farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that
effort seems wasted.
>> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature
>> so the readers of the list could see if other people found the model
>> "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I
>> believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an
>> official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through
>> independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this
>> idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best
>> regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
>> tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx[25] www.sigcon.com[26] --
>> tel+High-Speed
>> Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original
>> Message-----
>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[27]
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
>> Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[29] Cc:
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call
>> for
>> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
>> wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends
>> on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether
>> the directory would include information that would indicate the model's
likely usefulness.
>> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ),
>> that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any
>> way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be
>> undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way
>> that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target
>> Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model,
>> SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed
>> parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model,
>> or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[31]
>> wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or
>> contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
>> wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
>> -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to
>> this thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists,
>> but was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm
>> posting it here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you
>> are also on the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best
>> regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent
>> EEsof EDA -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday,
March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To:
>> IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[33]' Subject: Straw poll
>> and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a
>> wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from
>> customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC
vendor". I usually point them at:
>> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34]
>> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info
>> is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced
>> Google search like:
>> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.
>> c [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain,
>> obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and
>> pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of
>> update requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you
say?
>> Here's a definition from
>> wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and
>> Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an
>> employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or
>> community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a
>> crowd) asking for contributions.' (from
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm
>> wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on
wikipedia:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specific
>> a [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their
>> info themselves.
>> It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Informatio
>> n [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in
>> this informal straw poll:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-d
>> i [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this
>> thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product
>> Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>>
>>
>> --- Links ---
>> 1 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com
>> 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 5 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 6 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 7 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
>> 8 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
>> 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 11 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 12 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 13 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
>> 14 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
>> 15 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/
>> 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/
>> 18 //freelists.org
>> 19 http://docs.google.com/
>> 20 http://wave.google.com
>> 21
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
y/
>> 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 24 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 25 mailto:howie03@xxxxxxxxxx
>> 26 http://www.sigcon.com
>> 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 29 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> 30 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 31 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> 32
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
>> 33 mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
>> 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm
>> 36
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
>> 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing
>> 38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
>> 39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
>> 40
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-d
>> i
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>
>
> --
> Steve Weir
> IPBLOX, LLC
> 150 N. Center St. #211
> Reno, NV 89501
> www.ipblox.com
>
> (775) 299-4236 Business
> (866) 675-4630 Toll-free
> (707) 780-1951 Fax
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--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
150 N. Center St. #211
Reno, NV 89501
www.ipblox.com
(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax
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