[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
- From: "Lynne D. Green" <lgreen22@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>, colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:03:47 -0700
Steve and Colin,
The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee (who are
representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report models that pass
the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone could encourage vendors
to post their parser output file, with comments about why particular
warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job.
Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And only
reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) point about IP
protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of our "neutral" review
service to get on this list.)
Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: articles
and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS parser, specs,
cookbook, etc.
Cheers,
Lynne
Lynne Green
Chair
IBIS Model Review Committee
steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like structure
ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure to unchecked,
and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. We do not live in
suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in tight competition might
nottry and get an edge in new product adoption by spreading FUD over their
competitor's offerings. In a world where NDA's are required just to obtain
data sheets I find it nearly impossible to believe vendors would expose
themselves in such a public and difficult to control way. I think that if
anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of:
a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor
participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party such
as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best regards, Steve
colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and updates are an
issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or
"how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will
add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal
IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA blog
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From:
si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[3] [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[4]] On
Behalf Of Powell, Jon N Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve
weir; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[5] Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[6]; ibis@xxxxxxx[7];
ibis-users@xxxxxxx[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the
copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a
copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將
-----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[9]
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[11] Cc:
bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[12]; ibis@xxxxxxx[13]; ibis-users@xxxxxxx[14] Subject:
[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so cheap as
to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not particularly
difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this
needs people willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers
so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve.
colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the feedback
and encouragement :-) There are several options each with pros and cons *
Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis e.g. hosted and
self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * Discussion forums (bulletin
boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * Email
reflectors like the si-list //freelists.org[18] * Shared document/table
like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the
above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next
generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with
each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email
reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate
threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * WYSIWYG versus markup
languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. *
"Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom"
(conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative):
**Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on
the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors
behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** Discussion Forums let
everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the
threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated)
conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for
their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info to do I
have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent
harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * History/reversion: How do
we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays?
There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an
adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check?
* Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema
(specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly
interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a
consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for
the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
-directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, --
Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
-----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[22]
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent:
Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[24] Subject:
[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you are on
to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time farting around
trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted.
I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the
readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". Some
"wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be
crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet
the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. Good
luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your
link and voted. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- High-Speed
Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[27]
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[29] Cc:
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how
well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory
would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness.
There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that
aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some of
them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would
really like to see something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list
IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target Model Part Number Free or pay
modelModel basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based
model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or
not Link to model, or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[31]
wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to
an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in
this informal straw poll:
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
-director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this
thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was
disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it here in
the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on the IBIS
lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal
Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA -----Original Message-----
From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To:
IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[33]' Subject: Straw poll and
call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there
an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at:
http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34]
http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is
out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced Google
search like:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c[36]
om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, obviously)
ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling or
burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. Sooo...How
about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from
wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing
for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or
contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through
an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for
contributions.' (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] )
Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS
page on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica[38]
tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves.
It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information[39]
_Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this informal
straw poll:
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di[40]
rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. Best
regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof
EDA
--- Links ---
1 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com
3 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
4 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
5 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
6 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
7 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
8 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
9 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
10 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
11 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
12 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
13 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
14 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
15 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/
17 http://www.forummatrix.org/
18 //freelists.org
19 http://docs.google.com/
20 http://wave.google.com
21
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/
22 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
23 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
24 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
25 mailto:howie03@xxxxxxxxxx
26 http://www.sigcon.com
27 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
28 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
29 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
30 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
31 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
32
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
33 mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm
36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing
38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
40 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
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