[SI-LIST] Re: Series termination

Hi Steve
Thanks for all the help.

If you disagree that my description and SATA spec are different then may 
be my description was wrong. I'm sorry about that. I am practically 
copying the second part of the figure (I say "practically" because this 
is not the complete circuit) in the design.

 From your subsequent comments I guess the 0.5V and ground in this 
design must be tightly coupled. Can you tell me how good are off-chip 
bypass capacitors for this at say, 500Mbps, 1Gbps and 5Gbps? Providing 
on-chip bypass will be difficult because of the size of the capacitor 
required.

Regards
Vinayak



steve weir wrote:

> Vinayak,
>
> I strongly disagree that what you have described looks like the SATA 
> spec.  The SATA spec drivers are all balanced 50 ohm + 50 ohm outputs 
> at all times.  The current steered model maintains this by shunt, 
> while the voltage driven models do it in series.  You should be 
> copying the lower part of Figure 29.  If you doubt this, build a model 
> and short the low side 50 ohm resistor.  You aren't going to like the 
> results and neither will your customers.
>
> Ultimately, from the package boundary to the driver high side, the 
> return reference and Vcc must be tightly coupled.  You can see this by 
> building a fairly simple SPICE model and inserting a series resistor 
> or inductor in the coupling path.
>
> The concept in the old slow days was that Vcc and ground were tightly 
> coupled inside and outside the package.  The return current divided 
> going back into the package across both rails, which inside the 
> package were a near AC short.  However, fast forward to today, and 
> that model has serious issues.  Any apparent lumped inductance of any 
> size is going to cause the kind of severe SSO that has Lee pounding 
> the table, and Chris constantly warns of when signal returns are not 
> designed correctly.  If you build a 6Gbps I/O the way you are talking, 
> you will become a poster child for the problems Lee has been writing 
> about in EETimes.
>
> At high edge rates, you need to carry I/O from the pad through the 
> package as a well designed transmission line.  The reference for that 
> line should be carefully selected to be relevant at the pad.  This 
> reference needs to be identified so that at the package / PCB 
> interface, the transmission line is simply continued.  Logic common is 
> usually a good choice.  You will still need to have adequate bypassing 
> inside the IC to maintain stability of the opposing rail.
>
> Steve.
>
> At 02:59 PM 12/28/2004 +0530, Vinayak AGRAWAL wrote:
>
>> Thanks Vinu and Patrick
>> Unfortunatly I have termination resistance specs and not return loss
>> specs. I'm not using a current steering topology and the termination
>> resistors are on-chip. The problem is that I'm an ASIC designer, I can
>> get package data but I don't have any experince of board design and I
>> don't know how to take board effects into account.
>>
>> The output circuit may seem unusual but I don't think it is too unusual.
>> You can find something similar on page 91 of SATA (Serial ATA) 1.0a
>> specification (you can download from
>> http://www.serialata.org/docs/serialata10a.ZIP, or see the attached
>> page): there are two figures, first is a current steering driver (that
>> obviously has a parallel termination) and the second is similar to  I'm
>> trying to design. This driver works effectively as two single-ended
>> drivers (properly synchronised to remove skew).
>>
>>
>> Another doubt I have is does 50ohm termination in a series-temrinated
>> single-ended driver really work as a 50ohm termination? Assuming signal
>> trace runs over a ground plane, then the return current for high speed
>> signals on this trace will run directly underneath the trace on the
>> ground plane, AND I ASSUME to the package and to the driver. But on a
>> high going transition the driver must get the return current through Vdd
>> (or Vtt). Which means it'll have to go through either the supply-ground
>> bypass capacitor or some other way. Either way there must be
>> siginificant inductances in the path (I'm sure I'm missing something,
>> but don't know exactly what) which means termination is not 50ohms, but
>> is 50ohms in series with an inductance (and may be some transmission
>> lines as well if the bypass capacitor is away from the chip). Will there
>> not be siginificant amount of reflections in such a case?
>>
>> Regards
>> Vinayak
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Vinu Arumugham wrote:
>>
>> > While I am no expert, this looks like an unusual output structure.
>> > You may be familiar with the OIF CEI standard. These standards for
>> > 6/11 Gbps signaling, specify the common mode and differential return
>> > loss that TX and RX devices must meet with respect to ground. Most
>> > high speed differential interconnects at the system level are
>> > referenced only to ground. If your structure is able to meet
>> > specifications such as CEI, including package and package/board
>> > interface effects, they should be fine.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Vinu
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
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>



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