[SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off.

I second the motion on the 0.8 mm pitch package.  I'd also like to do the
same with those who propose 2 between routing of 1 mm pitch parts on high
layer count  PCBs and to the PCB fabricators who encourage it.

Lee


> [Original Message]
> From: Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: steve weir <weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx>; Chris Cheng
<Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: silist <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 1/16/2004 4:55:31 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide
The 100Mhz clean cut off.
>
> For starter I would like to subpena whoever propose these .8mm pin pitch
> package and put them in a public trial by their peers in Si-list and then
> hang them by high noon.
> What were they thinking ? Have they try to escape signals or deliver power
> to those package on a PCB ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 3:57 PM
> To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> Cc: silist
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling
> Gu ide The 100Mhz clean cut off.
>
>
> Chris, the intent is not to create a benchmark decoupling design. Far
from 
> it, it is an effort to create a method for specifying component power 
> supply in a form that practical, by combining the component with its
local 
> attachment.  If some chip manufacturer thinks they needs a zillion power
/ 
> ground balls, then by specifying power as delivered into a ring on the 
> power planes surrounding the part, the effect of carving up the planes is 
> known.  If they use fewer, then those effects are known as well.
>
> I think that it is pretty well demonstrated that at this stage of the
game, 
> the majority of integrators out there lack any or all:  the chip data, 
> tools, prowess to do the job that the really "big boys" can do from chip 
> through system.  Whether my idea is half-cocked or not, the effort is to
be 
> able to simplify the state-space so that with a competent understanding
of 
> impedance and cavity resonance ( whether by actual understanding or hand 
> holding ), a PDS engineer can successfully integrate a given chip.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Steve
> At 02:01 PM 1/16/2004 -0800, Chris Cheng wrote:
> >First, let me remind you of what I said below :
> >
> >"As a side note for those who want to built benchmark system design to
> >evaluate system to package distribution, good luck ! If you think you can
> >pick up something as subtle as the above, my hats off to you. I have
enough
> >trouble doing a unique case where I know everything ahead of time."
> >
> >I don't believe in standards or references or papers or textbooks telling
> me
> >what I should do and what not. You come up with your own analysis based
on
> >your own unique experiences and challenges. I suppose you have your own
> >experiences with >100W >GHz Si core power design and they may very well
be
> >different from mine or Larry's situation. Most FPGA,ASIC or ASSP have
lower
> >power and with lower core speed. But that doesn't mean they can get away
> >easy.
> >
> >If there is anything I said below I want you to take, it will be "do you
> own
> >analysis before drawing your conclusion". It is just an example of how
over
> >design can cost you money but at the end of the day, a bad engineer under
> >design and his part fails. A good engineer over design and his part
works.
> I
> >think I understand enough of Larry's company design methodologies
> (afterall,
> >I developed a lot of them) to say they don't throw pins in without
reasons
> >but for every action you take, there is a consequence you pay.
> >
> >I don't understand what do you mean by "Increasing the inductance to the
> >board has a good chance of
> >increasing the coupling between different parts of the chips." Are you
> >suggesting someone is deliberately adding inductance to the board ? I am
> >not, neither is Larry.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ed Priest [mailto:epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 10:07 AM
> >To: silist
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling
> >Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off.
> >
> >
> >This is getting scary. Please do not globally take the number of
> >required power and grounds on a specific project and apply it to all
> >applications. Microprocessors, FPGA's, ASSP, ASICs all have a different
> >on chip environment. The amount of on chip capacitance, the closeness of
> >the di source to the chip capacitance, the presence of on chip mixed
> >signal IP, all could make reducing the number of power and grounds a bad
> >idea. Increasing the inductance to the board has a good chance of
> >increasing the coupling between different parts of the chips. Again,
> >microprocessors where both the circuits and power distribution are
> >custom designed can have a lot more friendly environment then other
> >chips you deal with.=20
> >
> >This discussion and work can be very beneficial but applied incorrectly
> >can have disastrous effects.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx [mailto:Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx]=20
> >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:35 AM
> >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Cc: silist
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling
> >Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off.
> >
> >Chris,
> >Thanks a lot for the excellent explanation.  Will you please tell me
> >what=20
> >is the adequate number of power and ground pins for a 324 pin BGA
> >package.=20
> >  We use this package in two versions, C4 attach and wire bonded.
> >Regards, Ravinder
> >Server PCB Development
> >Hitachi Global Storage Technologies
> >
> >Email: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent by: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >01/15/2004 06:56 PM
> >Please respond to Chris.Cheng
> >
> >=20
> >         To:     "'Charles Grasso'" <cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Chris
> >Cheng=20
> ><Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'Larry Smith'" <Larry.Smith@xxxxxxx>
> >         cc:     scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, silist <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >         From:   si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >         Subject:        [SI-LIST] Re: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling
> >Guide The 100Mhz clean=20
> >cutt     off.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Well, I will give it a try based on what I now see as a complete picture
> >
> >of
> >what's going on with Larry's example.
> >
> >Disclaimer first
> >Since I was responsible for a lot of packaging and module designs in=20
> >Larry's
> >company before I departed many years ago, I have to say I have never
> >seen=20
> >or
> >reviewed or involved in any of the current or whatever future generation
> >package or module he is referring to. Everything I am saying is simply=20
> >based
> >on what Larry has disclosed in this public forum. If my guess is wrong,
> >please accept my apology.
> >
> >To begin the discussion, I have to requote Zhiping's question below on
> >how
> >to "shift the power integrity problem to the PCB level". I claim there
> >is=20
> >a
> >hard limit of 100MHz on the package power distribution, by that I mean=20
> >with
> >the existing number of pins/sockets and package caps and on die=20
> >decoupling,
> >all the available decoupling charge on the package and die will be=20
> >consumed
> >and core voltage will start to drop after 10ns of continues current
> >drain=20
> >on
> >die. Something on the PCB and external DC/DC regulator has to start
> >providing the charge to maintain the voltage level on die. By the same
> >token, due to the exiting impedance at the pins/socket and package, the
> >system (PCB or regulator) cannot reach the Si core power faster than=20
> >100MHz.
> >This is based on an optimized pin analysis where I want to provide the=20
> >least
> >amount of power and ground pins (if you ship a huge volume, like a 100M
> >of
> >them, @ a few cents per pin, you save a LOT of money) that can
maintain=20
> >the
> >minimum core noise level on die. The added benefit of it is you don't
> >need
> >to demand exotic >100MHz decoupling outside the package (since it
won't=20
> >help
> >anyways) and you also don't need to over kill your decoupling on package
> >
> >by
> >providing <100MHz decoupling bulk caps, just pass that responsibility to
> >
> >the
> >system folks.
> >
> >Now let's say you throw in too many power and ground pins on your
> >package.
> >Not only does it cost you money (@ a few cents per pin), it now also=20
> >starts
> >to perforated your PCB power and gnd planes to the extend that the PCB
> >to
> >package impedance starts to pick up (shifting below 100MHz). Now you=20
> >really
> >need to have a thin core PCB to lower the impedance back to equal the
> >case
> >when you have less power/ground pins with a smaller package. But in a=20
> >sense,
> >this is exactly what Zhiping was asking for, shifting some of the=20
> >integrity
> >problem to the PCB level. You can over design to an extend that what=20
> >happen
> >in the PCB really start to impact the package performance.=20
> >
> >It's your choice, too many pins and you will need BC and cost you
> >$$$$$$,
> >just enough pins and you don't need BC and save you some $ also. But
if=20
> >you
> >don't have enough pins, you are dead and no system or PCB design can
> >save
> >you.
> >
> >As a side note for those who want to built benchmark system design to
> >evaluate system to package distribution, good luck ! If you think you
> >can
> >pick up something as subtle as the above, my hats off to you. I have=20
> >enough
> >trouble doing a unique case where I know everything ahead of time.
> >
> >Same old song here, there is no need for BC. Hey, that may be in my
> >second
> >broken record.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Charles Grasso [mailto:cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:34 PM
> >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Larry Smith'
> >Cc: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; silist
> >Subject: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide The 100Mhz clean cutt
> >off.
> >
> >
> >Chris, Larry et al...
> >
> >Can you please explain the 100MHz clean cut so often mentioned in ths
> >thread? Is it bandwidth (i.e related to rise time?) is it the crystal=20
> >or...
> >
> >Puzzled.
> >Chas in Colorado..
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: zhiping yang [mailto:zhiping@xxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 5:55 PM
> >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Supply
> >Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide]
> >
> >
> >Hi Chris,
> >
> >Thank you for sharing your thoughts and Very good points about the power
> >integrity.
> >
> >One comment about your "total system approach".  Technically speaking,
> >it=20
> >is
> >best to put the equal amount of efforts on the die, package and PCB
> >power
> >distribution since they are equally important in the complete power=20
> >delivery
> >system.  More important, the PCB COULD NOT fix the problems with the die
> >
> >and
> >package power delivery systems in some cases.
> >
> >In the real word, when cost and $$ is involved, the trade-offes must be
> >made, so the design may not be optimized in technical side.  For
> >example,
> >due to the high cost of die size increase and package limitations, it
> >may=20
> >be
> >more cost effective by shifting the power integrity problem to the PCB=20
> >level
> >at a certain degree.  This may require using BC or more decoupling caps
> >on
> >the board, but it could still be cost effective from the "total system"
> >point view.
> >
> >This is my $0.02 input.  Thanks.
> >
> >Zhiping
> >------------------------------------------------------------------
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