I second the motion on the 0.8 mm pitch package. I'd also like to do the same with those who propose 2 between routing of 1 mm pitch parts on high layer count PCBs and to the PCB fabricators who encourage it. Lee > [Original Message] > From: Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: steve weir <weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx>; Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: silist <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: 1/16/2004 4:55:31 PM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off. > > For starter I would like to subpena whoever propose these .8mm pin pitch > package and put them in a public trial by their peers in Si-list and then > hang them by high noon. > What were they thinking ? Have they try to escape signals or deliver power > to those package on a PCB ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 3:57 PM > To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx' > Cc: silist > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling > Gu ide The 100Mhz clean cut off. > > > Chris, the intent is not to create a benchmark decoupling design. Far from > it, it is an effort to create a method for specifying component power > supply in a form that practical, by combining the component with its local > attachment. If some chip manufacturer thinks they needs a zillion power / > ground balls, then by specifying power as delivered into a ring on the > power planes surrounding the part, the effect of carving up the planes is > known. If they use fewer, then those effects are known as well. > > I think that it is pretty well demonstrated that at this stage of the game, > the majority of integrators out there lack any or all: the chip data, > tools, prowess to do the job that the really "big boys" can do from chip > through system. Whether my idea is half-cocked or not, the effort is to be > able to simplify the state-space so that with a competent understanding of > impedance and cavity resonance ( whether by actual understanding or hand > holding ), a PDS engineer can successfully integrate a given chip. > > Regards, > > > Steve > At 02:01 PM 1/16/2004 -0800, Chris Cheng wrote: > >First, let me remind you of what I said below : > > > >"As a side note for those who want to built benchmark system design to > >evaluate system to package distribution, good luck ! If you think you can > >pick up something as subtle as the above, my hats off to you. I have enough > >trouble doing a unique case where I know everything ahead of time." > > > >I don't believe in standards or references or papers or textbooks telling > me > >what I should do and what not. You come up with your own analysis based on > >your own unique experiences and challenges. I suppose you have your own > >experiences with >100W >GHz Si core power design and they may very well be > >different from mine or Larry's situation. Most FPGA,ASIC or ASSP have lower > >power and with lower core speed. But that doesn't mean they can get away > >easy. > > > >If there is anything I said below I want you to take, it will be "do you > own > >analysis before drawing your conclusion". It is just an example of how over > >design can cost you money but at the end of the day, a bad engineer under > >design and his part fails. A good engineer over design and his part works. > I > >think I understand enough of Larry's company design methodologies > (afterall, > >I developed a lot of them) to say they don't throw pins in without reasons > >but for every action you take, there is a consequence you pay. > > > >I don't understand what do you mean by "Increasing the inductance to the > >board has a good chance of > >increasing the coupling between different parts of the chips." Are you > >suggesting someone is deliberately adding inductance to the board ? I am > >not, neither is Larry. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Ed Priest [mailto:epriest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 10:07 AM > >To: silist > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling > >Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off. > > > > > >This is getting scary. Please do not globally take the number of > >required power and grounds on a specific project and apply it to all > >applications. Microprocessors, FPGA's, ASSP, ASICs all have a different > >on chip environment. The amount of on chip capacitance, the closeness of > >the di source to the chip capacitance, the presence of on chip mixed > >signal IP, all could make reducing the number of power and grounds a bad > >idea. Increasing the inductance to the board has a good chance of > >increasing the coupling between different parts of the chips. Again, > >microprocessors where both the circuits and power distribution are > >custom designed can have a lot more friendly environment then other > >chips you deal with.=20 > > > >This discussion and work can be very beneficial but applied incorrectly > >can have disastrous effects. > > > >Ed > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx [mailto:Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx]=20 > >Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:35 AM > >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx > >Cc: silist > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling > >Guide The 100Mhz clean cut off. > > > >Chris, > >Thanks a lot for the excellent explanation. Will you please tell me > >what=20 > >is the adequate number of power and ground pins for a 324 pin BGA > >package.=20 > > We use this package in two versions, C4 attach and wire bonded. > >Regards, Ravinder > >Server PCB Development > >Hitachi Global Storage Technologies > > > >Email: Ravinder.Ajmani@xxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > >Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > >Sent by: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >01/15/2004 06:56 PM > >Please respond to Chris.Cheng > > > >=20 > > To: "'Charles Grasso'" <cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Chris > >Cheng=20 > ><Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'Larry Smith'" <Larry.Smith@xxxxxxx> > > cc: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, silist <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling > >Guide The 100Mhz clean=20 > >cutt off. > > > > > > > > > >Well, I will give it a try based on what I now see as a complete picture > > > >of > >what's going on with Larry's example. > > > >Disclaimer first > >Since I was responsible for a lot of packaging and module designs in=20 > >Larry's > >company before I departed many years ago, I have to say I have never > >seen=20 > >or > >reviewed or involved in any of the current or whatever future generation > >package or module he is referring to. Everything I am saying is simply=20 > >based > >on what Larry has disclosed in this public forum. If my guess is wrong, > >please accept my apology. > > > >To begin the discussion, I have to requote Zhiping's question below on > >how > >to "shift the power integrity problem to the PCB level". I claim there > >is=20 > >a > >hard limit of 100MHz on the package power distribution, by that I mean=20 > >with > >the existing number of pins/sockets and package caps and on die=20 > >decoupling, > >all the available decoupling charge on the package and die will be=20 > >consumed > >and core voltage will start to drop after 10ns of continues current > >drain=20 > >on > >die. Something on the PCB and external DC/DC regulator has to start > >providing the charge to maintain the voltage level on die. By the same > >token, due to the exiting impedance at the pins/socket and package, the > >system (PCB or regulator) cannot reach the Si core power faster than=20 > >100MHz. > >This is based on an optimized pin analysis where I want to provide the=20 > >least > >amount of power and ground pins (if you ship a huge volume, like a 100M > >of > >them, @ a few cents per pin, you save a LOT of money) that can maintain=20 > >the > >minimum core noise level on die. The added benefit of it is you don't > >need > >to demand exotic >100MHz decoupling outside the package (since it won't=20 > >help > >anyways) and you also don't need to over kill your decoupling on package > > > >by > >providing <100MHz decoupling bulk caps, just pass that responsibility to > > > >the > >system folks. > > > >Now let's say you throw in too many power and ground pins on your > >package. > >Not only does it cost you money (@ a few cents per pin), it now also=20 > >starts > >to perforated your PCB power and gnd planes to the extend that the PCB > >to > >package impedance starts to pick up (shifting below 100MHz). Now you=20 > >really > >need to have a thin core PCB to lower the impedance back to equal the > >case > >when you have less power/ground pins with a smaller package. But in a=20 > >sense, > >this is exactly what Zhiping was asking for, shifting some of the=20 > >integrity > >problem to the PCB level. You can over design to an extend that what=20 > >happen > >in the PCB really start to impact the package performance.=20 > > > >It's your choice, too many pins and you will need BC and cost you > >$$$$$$, > >just enough pins and you don't need BC and save you some $ also. But if=20 > >you > >don't have enough pins, you are dead and no system or PCB design can > >save > >you. > > > >As a side note for those who want to built benchmark system design to > >evaluate system to package distribution, good luck ! If you think you > >can > >pick up something as subtle as the above, my hats off to you. I have=20 > >enough > >trouble doing a unique case where I know everything ahead of time. > > > >Same old song here, there is no need for BC. Hey, that may be in my > >second > >broken record. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Charles Grasso [mailto:cgrassosprint1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:34 PM > >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Larry Smith' > >Cc: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; silist > >Subject: Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide The 100Mhz clean cutt > >off. > > > > > >Chris, Larry et al... > > > >Can you please explain the 100MHz clean cut so often mentioned in ths > >thread? Is it bandwidth (i.e related to rise time?) is it the crystal=20 > >or... > > > >Puzzled. > >Chas in Colorado.. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: zhiping yang [mailto:zhiping@xxxxxxxxx] > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 5:55 PM > >To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Supply > >Distribution/Filtering/Decoupling Guide] > > > > > >Hi Chris, > > > >Thank you for sharing your thoughts and Very good points about the power > >integrity. > > > >One comment about your "total system approach". Technically speaking, > >it=20 > >is > >best to put the equal amount of efforts on the die, package and PCB > >power > >distribution since they are equally important in the complete power=20 > >delivery > >system. More important, the PCB COULD NOT fix the problems with the die > > > >and > >package power delivery systems in some cases. > > > >In the real word, when cost and $$ is involved, the trade-offes must be > >made, so the design may not be optimized in technical side. For > >example, > >due to the high cost of die size increase and package limitations, it > >may=20 > >be > >more cost effective by shifting the power integrity problem to the PCB=20 > >level > >at a certain degree. This may require using BC or more decoupling caps > >on > >the board, but it could still be cost effective from the "total system" > >point view. > > > >This is my $0.02 input. Thanks. > > > >Zhiping > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > >For help: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu