[SI-LIST] Re: SI Simulation post layout

Since all the vendors are chiming in here, I'll mention that SiSoft's
SiAuditor and Quantum SI products ( www.sisoft.com) can easily support this
. Post layout nets are extracted and a schematic representation created. Any
of the elements in the schematic can then be parameterized to allow
simulation of new constraints and topologies.

What is equally important, but not handled by other tools is that signal
quality is only 1/2 of the answer. You need to understand how topology,
termination, and IO changes affect timing margin as well. The SiAuditor and
Quantun SI products have fully integrate static timing analysis and provide
you with both the timing and waveform data at the same time.

I could go on, but instead would recommend you take a look at our website to
review the capabilities of our products. You can also contact me directly if
you desire.

Doug


-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Kai Keskinen
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:01 PM
To: ricky.lai@xxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Simulation post layout


After an extensive evaluation of hyperlynx 7.2, an evaluation of ICX, and
lots of experience with SpecctraQuest, now Allegro PCB SI, I can tell you
that all three tools will do the job. It is a question of how quickly you
need to analyze the board, how steep the tool learning curve is, and exactly
what you want the tool to do. The following is purely from my experience
with the tools and I know some folks will disagree:

ICX has an incredibly steep learning curve and doesn't perform well with
complicated high density designs. As well, you need this license feature and
then that one etc. The UI is really clunky. It is no good with importing
complicated designs from other layout tools.

Allegro PCB SI (the one without the S parameter capabilities) is probably
the best tool for a rapid, complete analysis of a board and has good
features for export to obtain timing data to allow easy post-route STA and
to do a report. It has a lot of depth and capability that is mainly learned
by experience. The UI is pretty good but needs a bit of work for some menus.
The S parameter version looks pretty neat and I'm looking forward to trying
it. One problem with the tool is that it doesn't have a built in import from
Mentor Expedition.

Hyperlynx has some great utilities like eye mask, PRBS generation (not just
random patterns), and other info regarding comparing loss due to tan delta
or skin effect, etc. It is very easy to use (a couple of hours and you are
on your way). Unfortunately, the UI is inefficient for rapid analysis of a
whole board but it is good for looking at key nets in detail. The waveform
viewer leaves a lot to be desired. The tool has a great rapid cross-talk
analysis feature that the other two tools lack. It's display of cross-talk
coupled tracks is really useful. The next release, 7.5, promises to fix a
few of the inefficiences. Hyperlynx has import capabilities from most
popular layout tools.

All three tools are approaching each other in price for the full packages.

Cheers,

Kai

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Lai, Ricky (Eng Hou)
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 2:15 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Simulation post layout


Another tool from Mentor, ICX, will allow you to do exactly what you
want: cut the nets or stubs, and then re-simulate without
re-translation.

Ricky

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Chris McGrath
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:04 PM
To: Nitin.Sood@xxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Simulation post layout


Nitin,

I have done a bunch of post-route simulations where I take the Boardsim
file and export the net to Linesim with reasonable success.  The latest
Hyperlynx exports vias as lumped capacitive loads whereas the Boardsim
via representation appears to be more realistic as compared to our
correlations on real hardware.  Exporting and tweaking in Linesim was
good enough for us to then recommend changes to layout and then
re-import the design into Boardsim for final verification, but there are
noticable differences between the Boardsim waveform and the same net
exported to Linesim.  It isn't perfect, but that is the best I was able
to do with Hyperlynx.

I would be anxious to hear about any other suggestions.

-Chris


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nitin Sood [mailto:Nitin.Sood@xxxxxxx]=3D20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 1:13 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] SI Simulation post layout
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Hello,
>=3D20
> Is there a tool that would allow me to simulate post layout=3D20  =
design

>with greater flexibility to analyze nets, edit nets=3D20  and see its=20
>effect on the integrity of the signal? =3D20
> Hyper-lynx doesn't allow me to cut nets or stubs and see its=3D20
> effect on =3D3D the signal. Every change intended needs to be=3D20
> incorporated in the layout and =3D3D then translated into=3D20
> hyper-lynx to be re-simulated.
>=3D20
> I appreciate your time and any leads.
>=3D20
> Thanks
> Nitin Sood.
>=3D20
>=3D20
>=3D20
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