[SI-LIST] Re: S parameter to time domain signal
- From: "Dmitriev-Zdorov, Vladimir" <vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:43:04 -0700
Hi Ron,
There is some inaccuracy in your statement.
First of all, neither of the products mentioned by Bill are with
behavioral simulators only. S-parameter support in HyperLynx and others
is made through ELDO kernel that is a TRUE circuit simulator, with all
conventional models included.
>ALL THE SIMULATION TOOLS YOU USE, USE ONLY A SINGLE FREQUENCY
ATTENUATION >FACTOR FOR ANY OF THE S-PARAMETERS..
>Only ADS uses a convolution of the impuse response obtained from the
S->Parameters to convert the the model back into the time domain..
Anything >less is only an approximation.
Funny to read this after working on this S-parameter code - CPF -
personally and spending years verifying simulation accuracy. Currently,
the model we have supports 3 different methods: direct convolution (by
finding impulse response by IFFT), recursive convolution or CPF, with
pole/residue representation of the dependence, and the system
identification method.
How about the following: defining arbitrary multiport consisting of many
RLC components, controlled sources, W-elements, other S-parameters, then
generating the entire S/Y/Z parameters for this multiport. After that,
replacing the original linear multiport with the S-model created and
performing time domain simulation. The results are undistinguishable if
compared to the time domain simulation when the original RLC...
multiport.
Even better: simulation time is reduced because internal nodes/elements
are excluded and accuracy is higher for larger step... because LTE is
excluded, too. Number of ports: 40, 68, 158, 226... etc.
Vladimir
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >Behalf Of ron@xxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:32 PM
>To: Hargin, Bill
>Cc: codymiller@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: S parameter to time domain signal
>Hi Bill and Cody
>The beharioural simulators you mention do not accurately simulate the
time >domain simulations. Where no great deal of accuracy is required
these >simulatiors provide a minimum level of assurance that a circuit
may >operate.=20
>The strength of the beharioural simulators is only in their fast
simulation >time and in the tie-in to the board layout software. Quick
and easy but >weak in accuracy.
>Spice type simulators are quite a bit better, take more time to run but
do >not show frequency dependent loss.=20
>ALL THE SIMULATION TOOLS YOU USE, USE ONLY A SINGLE FREQUENCY
ATTENUATION >FACTOR FOR ANY OF THE S-PARAMETERS..
>Only ADS uses a convolution of the impuse response obtained from the
S->Parameters to convert the the model back into the time domain..
Anything >less is only an approximation.
>Ron Miller
Hargin, Bill wrote:
>Hi Cody/Ron:
>
> =20
>
>>>Does anyone in the group know of any available software
>>> =20
>>>
>>packages that
>> =20
>>
>>>can take post measurement S11 data and convert it to a time =
domain=3D20
>>>reflected signal?
>>> =20
>>>
>
>While it's true that tools with RF roots perform this analysis, we've
>offered this functionality for years ourselves, and I'm sure there are=20
>several others offering this functionality ... 3 Mentor tools that do
>this:
>
> HyperLynx: Pre- and post-layout; Works in any PCB flow.
> ICX: Primarily for floorplanning and post-layout; Board Station and
>Expedition.
> ICX Pro: Pre- and post-layout; Tightly integrated into the=20
>Expedition flow.
>
>
>Bill Hargin
>High-Speed Marketing Manager
>Mentor Graphics Corp.
>Systems Design Division
>425-301-4425 - Mobile=3D20
>
>=3D20
>
>
> =20
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20=20
>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ron@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:51 PM
>>To: codymiller@xxxxxxxxxx
>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: S parameter to time domain signal =3D20 Hi Cody
>>=3D20 ADS is the only tool that takes complex S-Parameter data as =
a=3D20=20
>>model and simulates the time domain signals including reflections.
>>=3D20
>>Call Agilent.... Lease is about 20K per year fully supported =3D20 Ron =
>>Miller =3D20 =3D20 codymiller@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>=3D20
>> =20
>>
>>>All,
>>>
>>>Does anyone in the group know of any available software=3D20
>>> =20
>>>
>>packages that=3D20
>> =20
>>
>>>can take post measurement S11 data and convert it to a time =
domain=3D20
>>>reflected signal?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Cody Miller
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>>>
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>>=3D20
>>=3D20
>>--
>>Ronald B. Miller, Microwave/SI Engineer RAIL =3D3D NOISE + =
REFLECTIONS
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--
Ronald B. Miller, Microwave/SI Engineer RAIL =3D NOISE + REFLECTIONS
Gigahertz Data Div of MI Corp. \\ // \\ //=20
7721 Sunset Avenue \\// \\//
Newark, CA 94560 ->JITTER<- EYE ->JITTER<-
tel 510-793-4744, //\\ //\\
fax 510-742-6686 // \\ // \\
www.ghzdata.com RAIL =3D NOISE + REFLECTIONS=20
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