BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } Our layout folks here have no problem matching to within +/-1mil, and that is the spec we use! But we don't usually have many diffpairs - 32 at most. I guess the 60ps XAUI interconnect skew allocation is for signal integrity/timing purposes. In a real system, where EMI may also be of concern, a 60ps skew with all its common-mode voltage/current implications may be too much. Best regards. Hassan. On Tue 10/20/09 11:41 AM , Vinu Arumugham vinu@xxxxxxxxx sent: The 3.125Gbps XAUI spec. allocates 60ps for interconnect skew. So as Lee wrote, in theory 300 mil skew is acceptable. However, I agree with Jeff Loyer's approach. If it is easy to do +/-2.5 mil matching, the rest is margin for other impairments that are more difficult to control. Thanks, Vinu Nash, Timothy J wrote: > I agree with that rule of thumb, except... > > Many layout folks complain that we sometimes over-constrain our designs. That is to say, whether hand-routed or auto-routed, the DRC constraints can be prohibitive - especially when dealing with wide matched-length differential busses on minimal layer counts. I think it is important to keep in mind that there is no magic number, rather the number is a function of the characteristics of the interface. I would agree that if you are only trying to match a few diff pairs or you have more than enough routing layers then matching to +/- 2.5 mils is a non-issue. But, why make it difficult matching to +/- 2.5 mils when 100 mils would suffice? The bottom line is, rules of thumb can be dangerous if we forget the caveats associated with them. > > Tim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [1]] On Behalf Of Joel Brown > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:54 AM > To: 'Loyer, Jeff' > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [2] > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs > > We use a similar approach but use 5 mils. It is a number I have seen in > various design guidelines including PCI express published by Intel. > I think Jeff is right it's easier and faster to have a one size fits all > rule even if it is overly conservative than to have to scrutinize each route > to see if the length matching is below some number related to rise time. > Our layout guy never has complained. > > Joel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [3]] On > Behalf Of Loyer, Jeff > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:21 AM > To: steve weir; Lee Ritchey > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [4] > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs > > After fighting this (how tightly must my diff pair be aligned?) forever, > I've taken a more pragmatic approach. I have my CAD folks use +/-2.5 mils > for ALL their differential pairs. This seems to be the quickest for all > involved. > > 1) CAD folks tell me that if they're going to match within 100 mils, > matching within 2.5 mils isn't much different. They don't care. > 2) They use the same constraints for ALL diff pairs - less chance for > messing that up, much quicker. They like that, A LOT!!! > 3) I don't spend any time worrying that they didn't match some diff pair > correctly, including accounting for multiple boards, etc. > > Of course, it does have the detrimental effect of lessening my workload and > hence my innate value (providing expert guidance on exactly how much > matching is required for each bus), but I'll take it. I have more job > security when the design is done more reliably and quickly. > > Does it make anyone else giggle that someone is hoping we'll provide a > complete Design Guide via e-mail? I would suggest to the original poster > that you'll need some other means to supply all the guidelines you'll need > to properly design a high-speed interface. Asking for specific > clarification is one thing, to ask for all the guidelines necessary for a > complete design is another. > > My $0.02... > > Jeff Loyer > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [5]] On > Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:43 AM > To: Lee Ritchey > Cc: Peterson, James F (EHCOE); si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [6] > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs > > Lee, If the driver is really slow or the path very long that might be > OK. For a clean driver on modest length links, 50ps skew can run 50% or > more of Tr/Tf. I don't like that much mode conversion. > > Best Regards, > > > Steve. > Lee Ritchey wrote: > >> Actually, I was being conservative at 100 mils. A mismatch of 300 mils >> total is acceptable throughout the total path. 300 mils is roughly 50 >> pSec.out of a 320 pSec bit interval. >> >> >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Peterson, James F (EHCOE) >>> To: >>> Date: 10/20/2009 6:09:07 AM >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>> >>> One comment on length matching at 100 mils : a lot of times the board >>> we're looking at is only one section of the interface. There is often >>> two more boards involved (a backplane and endpoint). When we say 100 >>> mils matched lengths, are we saying total matched length or at each >>> board (so total could be 300 mils in that case)? The thread below says >>> "matched at the receiver", which implies total, so the 100 mils should >>> be budgeted through 3 boards. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jim Peterson >>> Honeywell >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [9]] >>> On Behalf Of steve weir >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:13 AM >>> To: icer world >>> Cc: Lee Ritchey; Paul Hurst; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [10]; chundi srikanth; >>> Lambert Simonovich >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>> >>> 1) Matching much closer than 1/4 Tr/Tf offers little value by itself. >>> 100mils translates to about 16ps skew. That corresponds to a 64ns Tr/Tf >>> >>> for a 3.125G link which is a little to the outside, but it is not >>> horrible. I would rephrase Lee's advice as: Don't take any >>> extraordinary measures to match closer than 1/4 Tr/Tf as seen at the >>> receiver. The longer the link, the slower Tr/Tf will be. There is a >>> good treatment on this in Eric Bogatin's "Signal Integrity Simplified". >>> >>> If you get very tight matching truly for free, then fine. But obsessing >>> >>> about mechanical match to tight tolerances does not improve the design. >>> >>> It can in fact harm it if the matching is done with dense serpentines >>> which introduce their own dispersion and timing skew that is not >>> properly accounted in some tools. >>> >>> 2) Continuous return path is very important. Diff tolerates obscenities >>> >>> like crossing moats, but at undesirable costs. The best answer is don't >>> >>> interrupt the return path. >>> >>> 3) Surface ground guards are more often unintended resonators than of >>> specific value. See if the cross-talk can be satisfied with spacing. >>> If it can't, then consider alternatives. >>> >>> 4) I am not clear on what you are trying to recommend. Are you talking >>> about termination at both ends of the link, or even and odd mode >>> terminations? >>> >>> 5) An appropriate stitch density helps with EMC and signal integrity. >>> Follow Bruce Archambeault's hierarchy on layer assignments and your life >>> >>> will be good: >>> i. Route on one layer that faces a contiguous plane. >>> ii. Switch between layers on either side of the same contiguous plane. >>> iii. Switch between layers that reference planes on the same DC >>> potential that are adequately stitched together. This is often >>> misunderstood as needing to assign a return stitch via near each >>> transition. The point is to raise the resonant frequency of the >>> structure sufficiently so that it won't be a problem to the signal. >>> iv. If you must switch between layers that are stitched with bypass caps >>> >>> and planar capacitance. Be wary of PDN resonances in the signal >>> frequency range. These will tend to occur at much lower frequency than >>> cavity resonances. >>> >>> Steve. >>> >>> icer world wrote: >>> >>> >>>> 1) length matching must be consided seriously and mismatch should be >>>> >>>> >>> below 100mils; >>> >>> >>>> 2) generally speaking,the differential pairs impedance must keep >>>> >>>> >>> 100ohm and the ground return path must not be choped ; >>> >>> >>>> 3) the ground guarding trace should keep two times of differential >>>> >>>> >>> trace width away from the differantial pairs,which can not influences >>> the differential pairs impedance and avoid crosstalk issues; >>> >>> >>>> 4) using serial and parallel matching resistors simultaneously for >>>> >>>> >>> debug ; >>> >>> >>>> 5) changing layers is not expected,but if necessary ,you should place >>>> >>>> >>> a groung via near the signal via ; >>> >>> >>>> the above is just an advice ,and you'd better do a simulatiom to >>>> >>>> >>> decide the rules of matching resistors and crosstalk; >>> >>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Lee Ritchey >>>> To: Paul Hurst ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [13] >>>> Cc: chundi srikanth ; Lambert Simonovich >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 11:46:36 PM >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>>> >>>> Length matching does not need to be tighter than 100 mils. >>>> >>>> It is not necessary to back drill vias used to connect component pins >>>> >>>> >>> to >>> >>> >>>> traces or to change layers. The 0.6 pF or so capacitance does not >>>> adversely affect the signals at this data rate. >>>> >>>> It is not necessary to put "ground" vias next to routing vias as long >>>> >>>> >>> as >>> >>> >>>> the PDS is well designed." >>>> >>>> "Guard" traces have no value. Proper spacing to avoid crosstalk >>>> >>>> >>> does. >>> >>> >>>> The "rule of thumb" for spacing given, while crude, is not far off. >>>> >>>> Lee Ritchey >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> [Original Message] >>>>> From: Paul Hurst >>>>> To: >>>>> Cc: chundi srikanth ; Lambert Simonovich >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: 10/18/2009 5:45:08 PM >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>>>> >>>>> Srikanth, >>>>> >>>>> Additional to Bert's comments:- >>>>> >>>>> 1) Match the lengths of the pairs exactly >>>>> 2) Use a solid ground return >>>>> 3) Avoid stubs by design or by using stub-drilling >>>>> 4) If you have vias in the path use a small drill and a large >>>>> >>>>> >>> anti-pad and >>> >>> >>>>> place a ground via next to each signal via >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [20] >>>>> >>>>> >>> [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [21]] >>> >>> >>>>> >>>> On >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Behalf Of Lambert Simonovich >>>>> Sent: 16 October 2009 21:57 >>>>> To: 'chundi srikanth'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [22] >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Srikanth, >>>>> >>>>> A rough rule of thumb is greater than 3 times trace width separation >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> between >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> pairs. Using a 2D field solver will ultimately give you the crosstalk >>>>> coupling factor for the exact geometry in your stackup, and dictate >>>>> >>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>> routing rules you need to follow to satisfy your noise budget. >>>>> >>>>> Adding GND guarding will more often than not present more issues than >>>>> >>>>> >>> it >>> >>> >>>>> solves. You should stitch these guard traces at regular intervals >>>>> approximately 1/10 of the wavelength of the highest frequency >>>>> >>>>> >>> component of >>> >>> >>>>> the aggressor signal to avoid it from resonating and coupling noise >>>>> >>>>> >>> back >>> >>> >>>>> onto other adjacent traces. This further reduces routing density of >>>>> >>>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>>> board. By the time you factor in the additional space of one trace >>>>> >>>>> >>> width >>> >>> >>>>> between the guard trace and Diff pair, plus the additional via >>>>> >>>>> >>> stitching, >>> >>> >>>>> you will find you are already at 3 times separation between pairs and >>>>> >>>>> >>> you >>> >>> >>>>> would gain back more real estate. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Bert Simonovich >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [23] >>>>> >>>>> >>> [si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [24]] >>> >>> >>>>> >>>> On >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Behalf Of chundi srikanth >>>>> Sent: October-16-09 12:40 PM >>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [25] >>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Routing guidelines for 3.12Gbps LVDS pairs >>>>> >>>>> Hi Techies, >>>>> We have a 12-layer board in which we have lot of differential LVDS >>>>> >>>>> >>> pairs >>> >>> >>>>> operating at several hundreds MHz. And we have SERDES signals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> (differential >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> TX & RX pairs) operating at CPRI rate-4 i.e., 3Gbps. So can you just >>>>> >>>>> >>> share >>> >>> >>>>> me some inputs on exactly what are the guidelines to be followed >>>>> >>>>> >>> while >>> >>> >>>>> routing these signals. And is GND gaurding between the differential >>>>> >>>>> >>> pairs >>> >>> >>>>> improve the SI?Please share or refer me any documents in which i can >>>>> >>>>> >>> get >>> >>> >>>>> Good information on High-Speed design guidelines. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> With Best Regards >>>>> Srikanth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [26] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [27] >>>>> >>>>> For help: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [28] with 'help' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>>> http://www.si-list.net [29] >>>>> >>>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [30] >>>>> or at our remote archives: >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [31] >>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [32] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [33] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [34] >>>>> >>>>> For help: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [35] with 'help' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>>> http://www.si-list.net [36] >>>>> >>>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [37] >>>>> or at our remote archives: >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [38] >>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [39] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [40] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [41] >>>>> >>>>> For help: >>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [42] with 'help' in the Subject field >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>>> http://www.si-list.net [43] >>>>> >>>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [44] >>>>> or at our remote archives: >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [45] >>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [46] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [47] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [48] >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [49] with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net [50] >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [51] >>>> or at our remote archives: >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [52] >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [53] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [54] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list [55] >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [56] with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net [57] >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list [58] >>>> or at our remote archives: >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages [59] >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu [60] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Steve Weir >>> IPBLOX, LLC >>> 150 N. 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