There must be more than one version of the paper copies as I read the page number right off my copy! -------------------------------------------------- From: "Stefan Milnor" <stefan.milnor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 11:14 AM To: "Michael Greim" <mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx> Cc: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Julian Ferry" <julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Right Angle Bends / MECL Handbook > Michael - > > > Yes, this is the book I meant. Thank you for pointing out the on-line > PDF copy. Now I don't have to worry about losing my paper copy. I got my > paper copy back in the days before the web, when you had to be nice to > sales people if you wanted to get any data sheets and application notes. > > > > And, although I did not realize it when I referenced the MECL handbook > this morning, it appears to be the source of the Right Angle Bend > debate, as pointed out by Mr. Lee Ritchy. However, the page referenced > by Lee is wrong - the right angle bend discussion is on (paper copy) > pages 143 and 144 (and, in the PDF version, these are PDF pages 154 and > 155). > > > > I don't know who is right on this. Perhaps this part of the MECL book is > flawed, but overall I think this book is a great free resource, with > clear arguments backed by measurements and figures. > > > > And I don't think any of you debating this the last few days got any > work done J > > > > - Stefan > > > > From: Michael Greim [mailto:mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 8:47 AM > To: Stefan Milnor > Cc: Lee Ritchey; Scott McMorrow; Julian Ferry; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends > > > > Stefan, > > > > Did you mean the MECL System Design Handbook? > > > > http://s.eeweb.com/pl/1276642244-MECL-system-design-handbook.pdf > > > > If you are old school and want to do some highlighting you > > can also find this on amazon with the classic cover starting > > at 0.88. > > > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0006YFW7G/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF > 8&condition=used > > > > Job Bob says check it on out....... > > > > Best Regards, > > Michael C. Greim > > And all this science they don't understand > Is just my job six days a week..... > > We will either find a way or make one -Hannibal > > In the middle of every difficulty lies opportunity -Al Einstein > > > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Milnor > <stefan.milnor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > There were plenty of signal integrity issues in the days of DIPs and > wire wrap. The structures were just bigger. One of my favorite signal > integrity references is the Motorola ECL (Emitter Coupled Logic) > Handbook, long out - of -print. It is amazing what they did in the '60s > with high speed ECL wire-wrap constructions. And everything that you > have been debating can be analyzed and explained with a set of equations > developed in 1862 ..... > > - Stefan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > On Behalf Of Michael Greim > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:13 AM > To: Lee Ritchey > Cc: Scott McMorrow; Julian Ferry; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends > > Regarding "myths" and SI, Folks look everywhere and believe > what they "think" is there, and other folks may very well go, yup > it's there. However, they only really "see", when the light is good. > After all, if someone posted something on the SI list, then by > definition > it has to be true because only "the experts" on any given topic post > there. > Unless of course, they are a manager.........;-) or mangler as some > may view it, on items of a technical nature.......8-P......when the > light is good.......8-O. > > Everyone knows that if you can't see it then it is not there, much like > the emperors new clothes. Lab correlation and validation will verify > the lack of clothing. Ya myt could sim this as well. > > In the days of DIPs there was no need for any signal or power integrity > and a twisted pair was merely two wire wrap wires put into a drill and > the trigger being pulled, and wirewrap established the ideal spiral > serpentining for signal transmission. > > That is all............ > > Best Regards, > > Michael C. Greim > > And all this science they don't understand > Is just my job six days a week..... > > We will either find a way or make one -Hannibal > > In the middle of every difficulty lies opportunity -Al Einstein > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Lee Ritchey > <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote: > >> It is odd that those who fret over right angle bends seem to ignore > the >> fact >> that there is at least on at every via where a trace connects. My old >> friend, Dan Murphy, called this "looking where the light is good." >> >> The same engineers used dual in line IC packages by the millions with > as >> many as three right angle bends in each lead. They weren't visible, > so >> they >> didn't count! >> >> -- >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu