[SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
- From: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Sol Tatlow" <Sol.Tatlow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:45:52 -0700
Sol,
Sure. In a previous reply I referred to a paper on my web site that you are
welcome to.
Similar information is in Volume 1 of the two book series I published on
high speed design. Those books are also on the web site.
Lee
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Sol Tatlow" <Sol.Tatlow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:00 AM
To: "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Zabinski, Patrick" <zabinski.patrick@xxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
> Lee,
>
> Would you care to share some links to those works dispelling this myth? I
> know I saw one paper testing even (sharp) 45 degree corners (or is that
> really 135 degree?) up to 100 MHz or so, with no measurable differences,
> but have not seen any in the double figure GHz region... you have my mouth
> watering;)!!
>
> With regards to your comments on not backing up simulations with real
> world measurements I can 100% agree!
>
> Regards,
> Sol Tatlow
>
>
>
> On 15.07.2011, at 19:45, "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> None of these calculations are substantiated by actual measurements.
>>
>> There are several published works with actual testing out to 20+ GHz
>> measuring signal traces that show there is no detectable effect on signal
>> quality.
>>
>> I have a half dozen test PCBs which have been used to make the same
>> measurements and I have published the results as well as shown them to
>> 8000+
>> students in my public and private classes.
>>
>> Our industry has a problem with people doing simulations from which
>> conclusions are drawn without validating the simulations. Often, as in
>> the
>> case of right angle bends, much time and money is spent by designers
>> making
>> something go away that is of no consequence.
>>
>> Simulations without validation can be very dangerous.
>>
>> Lee Ritchey
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Zabinski, Patrick" <zabinski.patrick@xxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:46 AM
>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
>>
>>> Here are a few of the earlier references on the topic.
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Calculation of Microstrip Bends and Y-Junctions With Arbitrary
>>> Angle
>>> AUTHOR Reza Mehran
>>> SOURCE IEEE Transactions on MTT, MTT-26
>>> DATE June, 1978
>>> PAGES 400-405
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Microstrip - A New Transmission Technique for the Kilomegacycle
>>> Range
>>> AUTHOR D. D. Grieg & H. F. Engelmann
>>> SOURCE Proceedings of the IRE
>>> VOLUME 40
>>> DATE December, 1952
>>> PAGES 1644-1650
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> These offer related info.
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Equivalent Circuit Modeling of Interconnects From Time-Domain
>>> Measurements
>>> AUTHOR Jyh-Ming Jong, Bozidar Janko, and Vijai Tripathi
>>> SOURCE IEEE Trans. on CHMT
>>> VOLUME 16
>>> NUMBER 1
>>> DATE February, 1993
>>> PAGES 119-126
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Equivalent Circuits for Discontinuities in Balanced Transmission
>>> Strip Lines
>>> AUTHOR Arthur A. Oliner
>>> SOURCE IRE Trans Micorwave Theory & Techniques
>>> VOLUME MTT-3
>>> DATE March, 1955
>>> PAGES 134-143
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Experimental Determination of the Properties of Microstrip
>>> Components
>>> AUTHOR Maurice Ardit
>>> SOURCE Electrical Communication
>>> VOLUME 30
>>> DATE December, 1953
>>> PAGES 283-293
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> TITLE Time-Domain Characterization of Interconnect Discontinuities in
>>> High-Speed Circuits
>>> AUTHOR Jyh-Ming Jong and Vijai K. Tripathi
>>> SOURCE IEEE Trans on CHMT
>>> VOLUME 15
>>> NUMBER 4
>>> DATE August, 1992
>>> PAGES 497-504
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~<done>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Enjoy,
>>> Pat Zabinski
>>> Mayo Clinic
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
>>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:33 AM
>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends
>>>
>>> Does anyone know the origin of the myth that right angle bends cause
>>> signal integrity problems?
>>>
>>> I though this myth had died a long time ago, but had a conversation last
>>> week with a well known fabricator who was told by a customer that right
>>> angle bends were a no no.
>>>
>>> This was a customer who should know better.
>>>
>>> Lee Ritchey
>>> Speeding Edge
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>>>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
>>>>>>> field
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For help:
>>>>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> List technical documents are available at:
>>>>>>> http://www.si-list.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>>>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>>
>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>>
>>>> For help:
>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> List technical documents are available at:
>>>> http://www.si-list.net
>>>>
>>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>>
>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>>
>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>>
>>>> For help:
>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> List technical documents are available at:
>>>> http://www.si-list.net
>>>>
>>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>>
>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List technical documents are available at:
>>> http://www.si-list.net
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List technical documents are available at:
>>> http://www.si-list.net
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>>
>> List technical documents are available at:
>> http://www.si-list.net
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List technical documents are available at:
> http://www.si-list.net
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
