*From*: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>*To*: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx*Date*: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:57:21 -0400

Doug Just to be clear. * Reduction of return loss by optimal chamfering of corners in RF designs is supported by good science, experimental evidence, and is practiced by most RF and Microwave designers world wide. * With high precision, high bandwidth measurement techniques and PCB launch design, corner bends, and the associated discontinuity can be measured, especially on boards with low loss materials. * For RF applications where traces are 100 mil to 200 mil wide, chamfering of corners is essential. The effective duration of the discontinuity is long enough to have an measurable and appreciable impact on return loss. * For digital applications where traces are 10 mil or less in width, there is a discontinuity, but it's duration is so short as to make it negligible for any application below 25 Gbps, and possibly 50 Gbps, unless one is stupid and places a huge number of corners on a trace run. Essentially, this is a numbers game. A bend always causes some increase in return loss at every frequency ... BUT ... at the same time loss in the trace sections leading up to a corner causes attenuation of the reflections, thus mitigating the impact of the bend making return loss better. Narrowing the trace at 50 ohm constant impedance effectively causes frequency scaling, pushing up the frequency where return loss peaking matters. So for narrow traces on medium to high loss materials it's just about impossible to measure a corner, without getting down to the impedance resolution of the trace itself. However, with wide traces on low loss materials, it is quite easy to see the impact and make the measurements. As for the idea that there is no experimental confirmation of the efficacy of bend compensation for low loss Microwave circuits, that's just hogwash. R. J. P. Douville and D. S. James, "Experimental study of symmetric microstrip bends and their compensation," IEEE Trans. Microwave Theory Tech., vol. MTT-26, pp. 175--181, Mar. 1978. Abstract---An experimental study of microstrip bends is described. For right-angle corners, equivalent circuit parameters covering a wide range of frequencies, linewidths, and permittivities are presented and compared with the limited theoretical values available. The influence of mitering or rounding of the corner was investigated, and useful empirical expressions are given for the optimum miter. best regards, Scott Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC On 7/15/2011 1:56 PM, Doug Brooks wrote: > The origins go WAAAAAAAY back. > We wrote our paper > "90 Degree Corners; The Final Turn" trying to debunk this in 1998. It > can be found in the articles section at http://www.ultracad.com > > The original concern may go back as far as 50 years with microwave > people, but has been soundly debunked by many people in the last 10-15 years. > > Doug > > > > At 10:43 AM 7/15/2011, Lee Ritchey wrote: >> None of these calculations are substantiated by actual measurements. >> >> There are several published works with actual testing out to 20+ GHz >> measuring signal traces that show there is no detectable effect on signal >> quality. >> >> I have a half dozen test PCBs which have been used to make the same >> measurements and I have published the results as well as shown them to 8000+ >> students in my public and private classes. >> >> Our industry has a problem with people doing simulations from which >> conclusions are drawn without validating the simulations. Often, as in the >> case of right angle bends, much time and money is spent by designers making >> something go away that is of no consequence. >> >> Simulations without validation can be very dangerous. >> >> Lee Ritchey >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Zabinski, Patrick"<zabinski.patrick@xxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:46 AM >> To:<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends >> >>> Here are a few of the earlier references on the topic. >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Calculation of Microstrip Bends and Y-Junctions With Arbitrary >>> Angle >>> AUTHOR Reza Mehran >>> SOURCE IEEE Transactions on MTT, MTT-26 >>> DATE June, 1978 >>> PAGES 400-405 >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Microstrip - A New Transmission Technique for the Kilomegacycle >>> Range >>> AUTHOR D. D. Grieg& H. F. Engelmann >>> SOURCE Proceedings of the IRE >>> VOLUME 40 >>> DATE December, 1952 >>> PAGES 1644-1650 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> These offer related info. >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Equivalent Circuit Modeling of Interconnects From Time-Domain >>> Measurements >>> AUTHOR Jyh-Ming Jong, Bozidar Janko, and Vijai Tripathi >>> SOURCE IEEE Trans. on CHMT >>> VOLUME 16 >>> NUMBER 1 >>> DATE February, 1993 >>> PAGES 119-126 >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Equivalent Circuits for Discontinuities in Balanced Transmission >>> Strip Lines >>> AUTHOR Arthur A. Oliner >>> SOURCE IRE Trans Micorwave Theory& Techniques >>> VOLUME MTT-3 >>> DATE March, 1955 >>> PAGES 134-143 >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Experimental Determination of the Properties of Microstrip >>> Components >>> AUTHOR Maurice Ardit >>> SOURCE Electrical Communication >>> VOLUME 30 >>> DATE December, 1953 >>> PAGES 283-293 >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> TITLE Time-Domain Characterization of Interconnect Discontinuities in >>> High-Speed Circuits >>> AUTHOR Jyh-Ming Jong and Vijai K. Tripathi >>> SOURCE IEEE Trans on CHMT >>> VOLUME 15 >>> NUMBER 4 >>> DATE August, 1992 >>> PAGES 497-504 >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~<done>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Enjoy, >>> Pat Zabinski >>> Mayo Clinic >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey >>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:33 AM >>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends >>> >>> Does anyone know the origin of the myth that right angle bends cause >>> signal integrity problems? >>> >>> I though this myth had died a long time ago, but had a conversation last >>> week with a well known fabricator who was told by a customer that right >>> angle bends were a no no. >>> >>> This was a customer who should know better. >>> >>> Lee Ritchey >>> Speeding Edge >>> >>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject >>>>>>> field >>>>>>> >>>>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For help: >>>>>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>>>>> http://www.si-list.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>> >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>>> >>>> For help: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>>> >>>> >>>> List technical documents are available at: >>>> http://www.si-list.net >>>> >>>> List archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>>> >>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>> For help: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>> >>> List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.net >>> >>> List archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>> For help: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>> >>> List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.net >>> >>> List archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > Check out our resources at http://www.ultracad.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

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**[SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends***From:*Lee Ritchey

**[SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends***From:*Zabinski, Patrick

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- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Zabinski, Patrick
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Moreira, Jose
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jeff Walden
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Doug Brooks
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Sol Tatlow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Vinu Arumugham
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Brad Brim
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Julian Ferry
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Julian Ferry
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Michael Greim
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Mick zhou
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Doug Brooks
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Julian Ferry
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Karthik Raj Guruchandran
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jeff Walden
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Michael Greim
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Stefan Milnor
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Michael Greim
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Howard Johnson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Tom Dagostino
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Howard Johnson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Kevin G. Rhoads
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jack Olson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - wolfgang . maichen
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jack Olson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jack Olson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Scott McMorrow
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jack Olson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - David Coleman (dcoleman)
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Jack Olson
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Lee Ritchey
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Right Angle Bends - Howard Johnson