[SI-LIST] Re: PDN related
- From: Istvan Novak <istvan.novak@xxxxxxx>
- To: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:57:39 -0400
Lynne and All,
One more caveat: the metric to judge the PDN performance is very
important. There are applications
where the noise power matters more, in those applications widening the
PDN bandwidth with Q>1
capacitors works very well. There are other applications, where the
worst-case instantaneous
noise voltage matters, and in those cases any impedance profile that
deviates from a smooth R-L
equivalent impedance will result in an increase of noise.
Regards,
Istvan Novak
Oracle
steve weir wrote:
> Lynne, there has been for many years an incorrect notion that bypass
> capacitors are not effective past their mounted SRF. This is at best a
> truism. The fact is that bypass capacitors work just fine decades
> beyond their mounted SRF. Istvan's DMB/DMI scheme that you will find
> detailed on his web site that you've referenced relies on this fact.
>
> At the beginning and end of the key issue in power delivery is
> inductance. If you are concerned with either or both cost and
> performance inductance of the components and interconnect is the
> limiting factor to both. Inductance drives basic impedance. Inductance
> drives Q in resonances.
>
> INDUCTANCE DRIVES THE NUMBER OF BYPASS CAPACITORS REQUIRED NO MATTER
> WHAT APPROACH IS USED FOR CAPACITOR VALUE SELECTION.
>
> While many pole networks can be very useful and Sigrity's Optimize
> PI(tm) customers are generally getting good results with that tool's
> approach, beware the rat hole of a many pole FD impedance plot: Those
> plots reflect voltage / current relations for circulating currents.
> This is Bruce's big caveat and one of the big reasons why he is so
> insistent on TD analysis.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Steve.
>
> Lynne D. Green wrote:
>
>> Hi, Steve and Rajesh,
>>
>> Enough caps of one size will work, until your signal content goes too
>> far past the resonance frequency.
>> And yes, different packages have different parasitics and different
>> resonance freqs.
>>
>> Using a variety of (carefully selected) caps covers a wider frequency
>> range (several decades).
>> At the same time, this reduces the total number of caps needed, and
>> quite possibly total cost.
>> These days, there are EDA tools to make this easier.
>>
>> And I agree wholeheartedly with Lee that there are plenty of good
>> books out there. Istvan Novak's
>> home page lists several of them. http://www.electrical-integrity.com/
>>
>> Lynne
>>
>>
>> steve weir wrote:
>>
>>> And yet there are any number of boards and systems that have been
>>> built using mostly one capacitor value such as 0.1uF that work fine.
>>>
>>> Steve.
>>>
>>> Scooby Doo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Lynne,
>>>>
>>>> This is what exactly what is wanted to ask. If the slew rate is
>>>> 1v/ns, then my 0.1uF capacitor value (designers blindly using value)
>>>> will not support due to existance inductive nature at that frequency.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So kindly give some reference / notes so that choosing right value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 3/15/10, Lynne D. Green <lgreen22@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Lynne D. Green <lgreen22@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PDN related
>>>> To: "Scooby Doo" <si.scooby@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Cc: "SI LIST" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 5:20 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the frequency range where you need PDN clean.
>>>> If it is a wide range (generally true) then one would use
>>>> more than one value of capacitor. Remember, capacitor
>>>> impedance increases at high frequency due to inductive
>>>> package effects.
>>>>
>>>> Lynne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "IBIS training when you need it, where you need it."
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Lynne Green
>>>> Green Streak Programs
>>>> http://www.greenstreakprograms.com
>>>> 425-788-0412
>>>> lgreen22@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scooby Doo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi SI Experts,
>>>>> I have a question reg PDN.
>>>>> Suppose an FPGA has 100 I/O pins with 10 VCCO/Gnd pairs. So an
>>>>> average of 10 I/O pins for 1 VCCO/Gnd pair. Assume each I/O pin
>>>>> driving 10pf load.
>>>>> My qn is, to make the clean PDN, is it enough to provide 100pf of
>>>>> capacitor to each Vcc/Gnd pair?
>>>>> I am not convinced with blindly provinding 0.1uF cap to Vcco pins.
>>>>> kindly clarify.
>>>>> Thanks in advance for your valuable feedback.
>>>>> Rajesh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
