[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering we could stop it
- From: "Ing. Giancarlo Guida" <gianguida@xxxxxxxx>
- To: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:37:07 -0100
Hi Steve,
I agree with you...
Just I strongly believe that we are smart enough to not borrow
the lighter when it is not the case......:-)
Giancarlo
steve weir ha scritto:
> Giancarlo, assuming the best is fine, but we should also not deny our
> ability to think and reason. When a man standing before me with a can
> of gasoline and oily rags asks if he can borrow a lighter, I am going
> to express my suspicions and decline.
>
> People have from time to time tried to use the list to among other
> things help with software piracy efforts. We have had some other
> questionable occurrences. Not so long ago someone came presenting
> themselves as an engineer "asking on behalf of a friend" for any dirt
> he could get on a particular vendor's product. To my nose it was an
> attorney with an ulterior motive. Others may have smelled something
> else or nothing at all. While the overwhelming majority of questions
> are innocent, not all are.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve.
>
> At 11:36 AM 5/22/2006, Ing. Giancarlo Guida wrote:
>> My two cents....
>>
>> May be I have a romantic concept of my colleagues
>> or an high consideration of our community
>> but I tent to believe that all question or problem posed to this forum
>> come from honest and genuine needs.
>>
>> On the other hand anyone could have his own ideas
>> and his own suspect so when a question seems to not be
>> honest we could have the habit to answer.
>> I am not going to answer because this and that
>> ...without judgment on the morality of the colleagues who posted the
>> question....
>>
>> A free forum should remain as much as free as possible
>> without too many rules
>> all partecipant can apply theyr own deciding if
>> a question should be replied or not.....
>>
>> Giancarlo
>>
>> P.S In all these years I have seen just few suspicious questions...
>> does this means that we are in a nice community?
>>
>>
>> Faraydon Pakbaz ha scritto:
>> > Well...Of course mentioning the "Reverse Engineering" raises the flag,
>> > because
>> > in every copyright, IP development the process of "Reverse
>> Engineering" Is
>> > prohibited. What I don't understand is, why such a question gets
>> posted in
>> > the
>> > Si-List? You have a need? Fine! I understand! Then higher IP lawyer
>> follow
>> > the
>> > legal process or what ever the legal process is, etc and get what
>> you want.
>> > Oh
>> > by the way I don't buy the argument of " vendor went belly up"
>> because you
>> > should always do second source and risk management. How do we know
>> > while we advising somebody for so called "Justifiable Reason"
>> somebody
>> > else is not taking advantage of information for ill purposes. The
>> bottom
>> > line is:
>> > " There is no right reason to do a wrong thing."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards;
>> >
>> > Don Pakbaz
>> >
>> > Silicon Solutions Engineering
>> > IBM Systems & Technology Group
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Nagel
>> > Michael-amn029"
>> >
>> <Michael.Nagel@mo To
>> > torola.com> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent
>> by: cc
>> > si-list-bounce@fr
>> > eelists.org
>> Subject
>> > [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
>> > Engineering
>> > 05/22/2006 08:12
>> > AM
>> >
>> >
>> > Please respond to
>> > Michael.Nagel@mot
>> > orola.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Good point - the copyright on PCB artwork.
>> >
>> > I agree that these situations may exist, but as Kedar did not=20
>> > elaborate much on this, doubts are allowed.
>> >
>> > When the company developing the board(s) goes out of business,
>> > they leave a larger trace behind than many people imagine.
>> > The PCB manufacturer they use has the Gerber files and I doubt that=20
>> > they disappear immediately when the originator of these files
>> > goes out of business.
>> >
>> > A PCB manufacturer will not hand out the data to another company
>> > except when the originator agrees. This is merely a question of
>> ethics,
>> > when customers get to know this, the PCB manufacturer is out of
>> > business.=20
>> >
>> > Once we are in the "middle ground" where the original manufacturer
>> does
>> > not
>> > exist anymore, access to this data (which might still be in one of the
>> > back-ups)
>> > can be discussed.
>> >
>> > Reverse Engineering - even with good reason - has always a bad taste,
>> > but=20
>> > that's my very personal view.
>> >
>> > Michael Nagel
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> > On Behalf Of JaMi Smith
>> > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:53 PM
>> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Cc: JaMi Smith
>> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>> >
>> > It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available,
>> > even from the board house . . .
>> > I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their
>> doors,
>> > without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data.
>> >
>> > I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less
>> > than 20 components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same
>> boards
>> > for over 25 years, from the same board house, that went out of
>> business
>> > before he could make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand
>> > taped artwork, where all that he could lay his hands on was film -
>> there
>> > never were Gerbers. The board house closed it's doors, and I re-did
>> the
>> > board for him from scratch, using all of the original dimensions and
>> > physical part locations, so that it would fit into his case, which he
>> > had also been re-ording from someone else for over 25 years, and made
>> > him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and even submitted it
>> > electronically to several other board houses for him, so that he could
>> > continue his legitimate business selling his original design as he has
>> > been doing for over 25 years.
>> >
>> > These things really do happen.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from
>> > me and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of
>> > revenue for him, not to mention other problems.
>> >
>> > Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable,
>> > although very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps,
>> especially if
>> > the "pirate"
>> > doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the
>> > "pirate"
>> > did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of
>> the
>> > layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for
>> copyrite
>> > violation, which he did.
>> >
>> > There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where
>> you may
>> > be legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes
>> > belly up and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying
>> > that module anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and
>> who
>> > is not even there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his
>> module, or
>> > simply says "go ahead and make your own". This too actually happens,
>> > more often than one would expect, especially in todays economy.
>> >
>> > I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago,
>> > where they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic
>> Data
>> > Exchange.
>> > I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the
>> subject of
>> > Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File
>> > Format", should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along
>> with
>> > Non Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and
>> specifically for
>> > Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that
>> > seemed to agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the
>> > subject, so it "fell by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX)
>> > "emailing list" for a while, but was conveinently dropped in due
>> course.
>> >
>> > I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start
>> > thinking about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other
>> > Priprietary Rights, when it comes to their Designs, and specifically
>> > with respect to things such as "Gerber Files", and other types of
>> files
>> > containing "Design Data", and specifically think about including
>> > "Statements" regarding such "Files"
>> > within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically
>> > within other documents such as a Purchase Order..
>> >
>> > Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the
>> > standard "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we
>> > used for all of our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in
>> > small print in one of the corners of each drawing. Many times this has
>> > been carried over to "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has
>> > this ever been done with actual "files" themselves. I would recommend
>> > that all in this "forum" give a little thought to what they can do
>> > within their respective companies, to protect themselves. I would
>> > minimumally recommend including a text file in your standard "zipped"
>> > manufacturing file package that you send to the board house or
>> assembly
>> > house, stating something to the effect that "All files contained
>> herein
>> > are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner of said files,
>> > and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such,
>> > specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives,
>> blah
>> > blah blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the
>> > Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe
>> Co., ...
>> >
>> > Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your
>> company
>> > and /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain
>> > ownership of your own intellectual property, in the event that you
>> need
>> > to.
>> >
>> > This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore",
>> > for "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific
>> > countries here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am
>> sure
>> > that everyone has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing
>> > the "off-shore manufacturing", ended up selling the product
>> themselves.
>> > This too has really happened.
>> >
>> > If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your
>> > own "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation.
>> >
>> > And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very
>> > appropriate topic of conversation for this forum.
>> >
>> > Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal
>> > with, what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have
>> > actually encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do
>> > "reverse engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist.
>> >
>> > And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes,
>> > multilayered boards can in fact be "reverse engineered".
>> >
>> > JaMi Smith
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM
>> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>> >
>> >
>> > Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not
>> > available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was
>> > fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files
>> used.
>> >
>> > Scott McMorrow
>> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> > 121 North River Drive
>> > Narragansett, RI 02882
>> > (401) 284-1827 Business
>> > (401) 284-1840 Fax
>> >
>> > http://www.teraspeed.com
>> >
>> > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
>> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kedar P Apte wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Steve,
>> >> I was expecting this Question - never mind
>> >> I am not in that business -
>> >> I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to
>> >>
>> > understand.
>> >
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Kedar
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir
>> >> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM
>> >> To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else'
>> >> design? Who helps a thief?
>> >>
>> >> If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's
>> >> corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are
>> >> many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts
>> >>
>> > payable.
>> >
>> >> Steve.
>> >> At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Hi All Gurus,
>> >>> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi
>> >>>
>> > Layered
>> > PCB.
>> >
>> >>> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get
>> >>>
>> > gerbers/netlist
>> > out
>> >
>> >>> of a multilayered PCB.
>> >>>
>> >>> May be by x-ray method or any other way.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out
>> with
>> >>>
>> > it's
>> >
>> >>> schematic.
>> >>>
>> >>> I need information about how to do this task.
>> >>>
>> >>> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any..
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Kedar
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.patni.com
>> >>> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions.
>> >>>
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