[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering

Faraydon "Don" Pakbaz,

You stupid, ignorant, moron!

What the hell are you talking about?

Take it off line - now!

JaMi Smith



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Faraydon Pakbaz" <pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:01 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering


> JaMi;
>
> Did you say your name is jaMi? Do you know what JaMi means? This is
> an alias you are using. Isn't it? You call me childish? Maybe so...but my
> mission is to expose you to Si-List because you don't even come with your
> true name but just an alias. I know who you are......but do you know who
> am I. I take on you and like you any time any where.....Your two lengthy
> letters
> is an advertisement for telling Si-List that you can do this kind of
> work...
> otherwise why would you write emails that are bigger than your resume
> and copy the entire Si-List. I can pschoanalyse you with your choice of
> words in your lengthy emails. My advise....lay off or I will expose you
and
> your work. Here is another childish for you... Consider me Dr. Hannibal
> Lecter...I will Pschoanalyse you.... You want to go one on one? respond to
> me
> just in my email address...
>
> P.S. My apology to Si-List for this kind of nonscientific responses.
> However,
>          I have a problem with people that make "Reverse Engineering" a
> carrier.
>
>
>
> Regards;
>
> Don Pakbaz
>
> Silicon Solutions Engineering
> IBM Systems & Technology Group
> Email: pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx
> Voice: (802) 769-5638  Tieline: 446-5638   Fax: (802) 769-5722
>
>
>
>              "JaMi Smith"
>              <jamismith@sbcglo
>              bal.net>                                                   To

>              Sent by:                  <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>              si-list-bounce@fr                                          cc
>              eelists.org               "JaMi Smith"
>                                        <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>                                                                    Subject
>              05/23/2006 07:08          [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
>              PM                        Engineering
>
>
>              Please respond to
>              jamismith@sbcglob
>                   al.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don,
>
> Not that I want a "war" with you, nor do we need a "war" in the forum, but
> if you will look very closely, I responded to the specific paragraph that
> was isolated below my response.
>
> I am not accusing you of anything more than what you said there, although
I
> will admit to also responding to what I precieved to be your overall
> "tone",
> not only specifically within that paragraph, but your whole post, although
> I
> did delete a majority of what had previously been said by both you and
> myself, and just left the germaine paragraph that I was responding to,
> since
> you were directly commenting on what I had previously said, and I simply
> took you for what you said, and deleted the bulk of the previous
> correspondance, since I don't believe in the need to send lenghty emails
> back and forth.
>
> You seemed to be chastizing me and my friend for his not using gerbers
when
> he made a small little experimantal pcb 25 years ago which turned into a
> little side business, since according to you he should have second guessed
> the original board house 25 years ago, and made sure he had a "second
> source" for "risk management".
>
> And contrary to what you may think, I am in a position to respond to your
> expressing your opinion, especially when you are directly expressing an
> opinion about something that I said, specifically when you respond by
> saying
> that "you don't buy it".
>
> You have made your position pretty well known, just as I have made my
> position known.
>
> This forum does not need this kind of "war" or childish BS, especially
when
> it revolves around misunderstandings and childish egos on the order of
> "don't you tell me what I can or cannot say", so if you want to presist in
> this issue, please take it off line and take it up directly with me, I
> would
> be more than happy to accomidate you.
>
> JaMi
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Faraydon Pakbaz" <pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
> <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>
>
> > JaMi;
> >
> > Of Course this means War....... You either like to hear yourself talking
> or
> > you have too much time in your  hand and write lengthy email to justify
> > the cause.
> >
> > First ....You are not in position to tell me If I can express my opinion
> or
> > not.
> > You did not read my note correctly so let me remind you. I never said,
> > these things
> > do not happen and I never said there are no need for Legacy, etc etc
> > document
> > tracing or "reverse engineering" so don't put word in my mouth.  I
simply
> > said
> > why this is getting posted in Si List. If one has product that has
lasted
> > 25 years and
> > one did not second source it, who is fault is that? Here is another one
> for
> > you...
> > If one climbs in a stone and fall for the first time, you can say it was
> > mistake and one
> > should learn from it but and that is a big but, ........if you climb on
> the
> > same stone and fall
> >  again then one deserves a broken neck because one did not learn from
the
> > first fall.
> > I also mentioned  in my note that do it by following the legal process.
> You
> > took it
> > very personally. Be as it may....Don't point your good work at me! The
> > problem is
> > while the advise maybe given in such a group talk for justifiable cause,
> an
> > ill
> > moral person may take an advantage. It was just a precaution warning. I
> > frankly
> > don't give a flying ........if you read my email or you concern with it
> but
> > don't and I mean
> > do not ever tell me that I can not express my opinion............
> >
> > Regards;
> >
> > Don Pakbaz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >              "JaMi Smith"
> >              <jamismith@sbcglo
> >              bal.net>
> To
> >              Sent by:                  <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >              si-list-bounce@fr
> cc
> >              eelists.org               "JaMi Smith"
> >                                        <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> Subject
> >              05/22/2006 05:59          [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
> >              PM                        Engineering
> >
> >
> >              Please respond to
> >              jamismith@sbcglob
> >                   al.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don,
> >
> > In this particular instance, my friend hand taped the original artwork
> for
> > his little product, as I said, over 25 years ago.
> >
> > He and his wife assembled and sold less than a thousand units each year,
> a
> > hundred or two at a time, as the OEM, to some other big names in the
> > particular industry who would retail the product under their own various
> > brands.
> >
> > He never anticipated the product would have such a long life, and just
> kept
> > reordering boards as he needed them, until one day he gave the board
> house
> > a
> > call and they weren't there any more. He ultimately tracked the people
> > down,
> > but all they could do was offer him a set of negatives.
> >
> > Whether you believe it or not, or whether you buy the arguement or not,
> is
> > of little concern or consequence.
> >
> > The fact is that these things do happen.
> >
> > I have been hired in the past by a legitimate multi-million Company, to
> > attempt to recover artwork from gerbers, where the Company had
originally
>
> > had a layout for one of their products done for them by a consultant.
> > Problem was that they wanted to make changes to the design, and while
> they
> > did have the gerbers, they did not have the original design files (or so
> > they thought), and they couldn't locate the consultant who had done the
> > original work. They sent me everything that they had so that I could
look
> > at
> > the existing files and give them a quote to regenerate a new design file
> > from the gerbers and make the new changes for them and then deliver all
> of
> > the new files back to them. Fortunately, I actually did find a Protel 99
> SE
> > design file amongst what they sent me, and was able use it and make the
> > changes that they wanted and make one very happy customer.
> >
> > I suppose you don't think that that was legitimate either.
> >
> > Well, unfortunately, we got a lot of people out here in this industry
> that
> > are doing pretty sloppy work to begin with, and never properly
> documenting
> > things that they do, so it is not the least bit supprising to me why a
> few
> > of these guys go missing when it comes time to get them to follow up on
> > some
> > mess they have made.
> >
> > What about Legacy Products, especially those that may have been made by
> > manual drafting means, do you consider those legitimate?
> >
> > This is quite a common occurance in industry these days, and it doesn't
> > just
> > happen with things that were done "manually", since it is quite often
> that
> > software products used to make a design within a Company, may be
changed,
> > or
> > where Companies merge or are bought out by other Companies, many times
> > either the original software to support a design, or the people who know
> > how
> > to use it, simply are no longer available.
> >
> > The bottom line to your bottom line is simply this: "There is no reason
> for
> > you to automatically say that what someone does is in fact a wrong
> thing."
> >
> > If you are actually trying to tell me that board houses do not in fact
go
> > belly up from time to time, then you need a good dose of reality.
> >
> > Problem is these days, not many Companies really want to spend the money
> or
> > take the time to properly document things, and occasionally, this leads
> to
> > disasters even with in the best of Companies.
> >
> > Reverse engineering is in fact a legitimate art, and more often than
not,
> a
> > legitimately necessary art.
> >
> > Don't be so quick to condem, especially when you are not really in a
> > position to know what is actually going on, and especially when you are
> not
> > a concerned party.
> >
> > As one final example, I have actually been assigned to a project within
a
> > company, to reverse engineer 3 seperate board sets, all of which had
been
> > heavily modified by the Lead Electrical Engineer on the project, where
> all
> > 3
> > board sets were different, and none of them matched the schematics. It
> was
> > actually necessary to reverse engineer all of the modifications on each
> > seperate board set because the Lead Electrical Engineer would not
> document
> > his changes. He actually made major changes and modifications and did
not
> > document them in any manner whatsoever. The company was in danger of
> > loosing
> > the contract, which was already heavily over-run, if they could not
> deliver
> > a workable product by a certain date. The first thing that I had to do
> was
> > to physically threaten the Engineer with physical bodily harm if he made
> > any
> > changes to anything whatsoever without my being there to observe exactly
> > what he did and properly document it. When he complained to upper
> > Management, they just smiled and asked if that meant that things were
> > finally going to get properly documented. It actually took a while to
> > reverse engineer things to the point where I was confident that I had
> > established a baseline from which we could make one final turn of each
of
> > the boards in the set. The contract stipilated that there could be no
> more
> > than 8 cuts and jumpers per final delivered board, and the Project
> Manager
> > had bet me a Stake and Lobster Dinner for ourselves and our wives. I let
> > everyone on the project know, especially the Lead Engineer, that if I
> lost
> > the bet, that he was going to pay for it. We met the contract
> requirements,
> > and I won the bet for dinner. I don't think that that Lead Electrical
> > Engineer ever was placed in a lead position again with that Company, but
> > don't tell me that there are not legitimate needs to reverse engineer
> > things
> > sometimes, and sometimes even when you are supposedly on the same team
on
> > the same project.
> >
> > Please do mistake my position on the legitimate need for the art and
> > ability
> > of reverse engineering, to mean that I am in favor of reverse
engineering
> > where there is not a legitimate basis for it.
> >
> > JaMi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Oh
> > > by the way I don't buy the argument of  " vendor went belly up"
because
> > you
> > > should always do second source and risk management. How do we know
> > > while we advising somebody for so called  "Justifiable Reason"
somebody
> > > else is not taking advantage of information for ill purposes. The
> bottom
> > > line is:
> > >  " There is no right reason to do a wrong thing."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards;
> > >
> > > Don Pakbaz
> > >
> > > Silicon Solutions Engineering
> > > IBM Systems & Technology Group
> > >
> > >
> >
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