[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering

JaMi;

Did you say your name is jaMi? Do you know what JaMi means? This is
an alias you are using. Isn't it? You call me childish? Maybe so...but my
mission is to expose you to Si-List because you don't even come with your
true name but just an alias. I know who you are......but do you know who
am I. I take on you and like you any time any where.....Your two lengthy
letters
is an advertisement for telling Si-List that you can do this kind of
work...
otherwise why would you write emails that are bigger than your resume
and copy the entire Si-List. I can pschoanalyse you with your choice of
words in your lengthy emails. My advise....lay off or I will expose you and
your work. Here is another childish for you... Consider me Dr. Hannibal
Lecter...I will Pschoanalyse you.... You want to go one on one? respond to
me
just in my email address...

P.S. My apology to Si-List for this kind of nonscientific responses.
However,
         I have a problem with people that make "Reverse Engineering" a
carrier.



Regards;

Don Pakbaz

Silicon Solutions Engineering
IBM Systems & Technology Group
Email: pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx
Voice: (802) 769-5638  Tieline: 446-5638   Fax: (802) 769-5722


                                                                           
             "JaMi Smith"                                                  
             <jamismith@sbcglo                                             
             bal.net>                                                   To 
             Sent by:                  <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>             
             si-list-bounce@fr                                          cc 
             eelists.org               "JaMi Smith"                        
                                       <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>           
                                                                   Subject 
             05/23/2006 07:08          [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse           
             PM                        Engineering                         
                                                                           
                                                                           
             Please respond to                                             
             jamismith@sbcglob                                             
                  al.net                                                   
                                                                           
                                                                           




Don,

Not that I want a "war" with you, nor do we need a "war" in the forum, but
if you will look very closely, I responded to the specific paragraph that
was isolated below my response.

I am not accusing you of anything more than what you said there, although I
will admit to also responding to what I precieved to be your overall
"tone",
not only specifically within that paragraph, but your whole post, although
I
did delete a majority of what had previously been said by both you and
myself, and just left the germaine paragraph that I was responding to,
since
you were directly commenting on what I had previously said, and I simply
took you for what you said, and deleted the bulk of the previous
correspondance, since I don't believe in the need to send lenghty emails
back and forth.

You seemed to be chastizing me and my friend for his not using gerbers when
he made a small little experimantal pcb 25 years ago which turned into a
little side business, since according to you he should have second guessed
the original board house 25 years ago, and made sure he had a "second
source" for "risk management".

And contrary to what you may think, I am in a position to respond to your
expressing your opinion, especially when you are directly expressing an
opinion about something that I said, specifically when you respond by
saying
that "you don't buy it".

You have made your position pretty well known, just as I have made my
position known.

This forum does not need this kind of "war" or childish BS, especially when
it revolves around misunderstandings and childish egos on the order of
"don't you tell me what I can or cannot say", so if you want to presist in
this issue, please take it off line and take it up directly with me, I
would
be more than happy to accomidate you.

JaMi



----- Original Message -----
From: "Faraydon Pakbaz" <pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering


> JaMi;
>
> Of Course this means War....... You either like to hear yourself talking
or
> you have too much time in your  hand and write lengthy email to justify
> the cause.
>
> First ....You are not in position to tell me If I can express my opinion
or
> not.
> You did not read my note correctly so let me remind you. I never said,
> these things
> do not happen and I never said there are no need for Legacy, etc etc
> document
> tracing or "reverse engineering" so don't put word in my mouth.  I simply
> said
> why this is getting posted in Si List. If one has product that has lasted
> 25 years and
> one did not second source it, who is fault is that? Here is another one
for
> you...
> If one climbs in a stone and fall for the first time, you can say it was
> mistake and one
> should learn from it but and that is a big but, ........if you climb on
the
> same stone and fall
>  again then one deserves a broken neck because one did not learn from the
> first fall.
> I also mentioned  in my note that do it by following the legal process.
You
> took it
> very personally. Be as it may....Don't point your good work at me! The
> problem is
> while the advise maybe given in such a group talk for justifiable cause,
an
> ill
> moral person may take an advantage. It was just a precaution warning. I
> frankly
> don't give a flying ........if you read my email or you concern with it
but
> don't and I mean
> do not ever tell me that I can not express my opinion............
>
> Regards;
>
> Don Pakbaz
>
>
>
>
>
>              "JaMi Smith"
>              <jamismith@sbcglo
>              bal.net>
To
>              Sent by:                  <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>              si-list-bounce@fr
cc
>              eelists.org               "JaMi Smith"
>                                        <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
Subject
>              05/22/2006 05:59          [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
>              PM                        Engineering
>
>
>              Please respond to
>              jamismith@sbcglob
>                   al.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don,
>
> In this particular instance, my friend hand taped the original artwork
for
> his little product, as I said, over 25 years ago.
>
> He and his wife assembled and sold less than a thousand units each year,
a
> hundred or two at a time, as the OEM, to some other big names in the
> particular industry who would retail the product under their own various
> brands.
>
> He never anticipated the product would have such a long life, and just
kept
> reordering boards as he needed them, until one day he gave the board
house
> a
> call and they weren't there any more. He ultimately tracked the people
> down,
> but all they could do was offer him a set of negatives.
>
> Whether you believe it or not, or whether you buy the arguement or not,
is
> of little concern or consequence.
>
> The fact is that these things do happen.
>
> I have been hired in the past by a legitimate multi-million Company, to
> attempt to recover artwork from gerbers, where the Company had originally

> had a layout for one of their products done for them by a consultant.
> Problem was that they wanted to make changes to the design, and while
they
> did have the gerbers, they did not have the original design files (or so
> they thought), and they couldn't locate the consultant who had done the
> original work. They sent me everything that they had so that I could look
> at
> the existing files and give them a quote to regenerate a new design file
> from the gerbers and make the new changes for them and then deliver all
of
> the new files back to them. Fortunately, I actually did find a Protel 99
SE
> design file amongst what they sent me, and was able use it and make the
> changes that they wanted and make one very happy customer.
>
> I suppose you don't think that that was legitimate either.
>
> Well, unfortunately, we got a lot of people out here in this industry
that
> are doing pretty sloppy work to begin with, and never properly
documenting
> things that they do, so it is not the least bit supprising to me why a
few
> of these guys go missing when it comes time to get them to follow up on
> some
> mess they have made.
>
> What about Legacy Products, especially those that may have been made by
> manual drafting means, do you consider those legitimate?
>
> This is quite a common occurance in industry these days, and it doesn't
> just
> happen with things that were done "manually", since it is quite often
that
> software products used to make a design within a Company, may be changed,
> or
> where Companies merge or are bought out by other Companies, many times
> either the original software to support a design, or the people who know
> how
> to use it, simply are no longer available.
>
> The bottom line to your bottom line is simply this: "There is no reason
for
> you to automatically say that what someone does is in fact a wrong
thing."
>
> If you are actually trying to tell me that board houses do not in fact go
> belly up from time to time, then you need a good dose of reality.
>
> Problem is these days, not many Companies really want to spend the money
or
> take the time to properly document things, and occasionally, this leads
to
> disasters even with in the best of Companies.
>
> Reverse engineering is in fact a legitimate art, and more often than not,
a
> legitimately necessary art.
>
> Don't be so quick to condem, especially when you are not really in a
> position to know what is actually going on, and especially when you are
not
> a concerned party.
>
> As one final example, I have actually been assigned to a project within a
> company, to reverse engineer 3 seperate board sets, all of which had been
> heavily modified by the Lead Electrical Engineer on the project, where
all
> 3
> board sets were different, and none of them matched the schematics. It
was
> actually necessary to reverse engineer all of the modifications on each
> seperate board set because the Lead Electrical Engineer would not
document
> his changes. He actually made major changes and modifications and did not
> document them in any manner whatsoever. The company was in danger of
> loosing
> the contract, which was already heavily over-run, if they could not
deliver
> a workable product by a certain date. The first thing that I had to do
was
> to physically threaten the Engineer with physical bodily harm if he made
> any
> changes to anything whatsoever without my being there to observe exactly
> what he did and properly document it. When he complained to upper
> Management, they just smiled and asked if that meant that things were
> finally going to get properly documented. It actually took a while to
> reverse engineer things to the point where I was confident that I had
> established a baseline from which we could make one final turn of each of
> the boards in the set. The contract stipilated that there could be no
more
> than 8 cuts and jumpers per final delivered board, and the Project
Manager
> had bet me a Stake and Lobster Dinner for ourselves and our wives. I let
> everyone on the project know, especially the Lead Engineer, that if I
lost
> the bet, that he was going to pay for it. We met the contract
requirements,
> and I won the bet for dinner. I don't think that that Lead Electrical
> Engineer ever was placed in a lead position again with that Company, but
> don't tell me that there are not legitimate needs to reverse engineer
> things
> sometimes, and sometimes even when you are supposedly on the same team on
> the same project.
>
> Please do mistake my position on the legitimate need for the art and
> ability
> of reverse engineering, to mean that I am in favor of reverse engineering
> where there is not a legitimate basis for it.
>
> JaMi
>
>
>
>
> > Oh
> > by the way I don't buy the argument of  " vendor went belly up" because
> you
> > should always do second source and risk management. How do we know
> > while we advising somebody for so called  "Justifiable Reason" somebody
> > else is not taking advantage of information for ill purposes. The
bottom
> > line is:
> >  " There is no right reason to do a wrong thing."
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards;
> >
> > Don Pakbaz
> >
> > Silicon Solutions Engineering
> > IBM Systems & Technology Group
> >
> >
>
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