[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
- From: Faraydon Pakbaz <pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Michael.Nagel@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:24:00 -0400
Well...Of course mentioning the "Reverse Engineering" raises the flag,
because
in every copyright, IP development the process of "Reverse Engineering" Is
prohibited. What I don't understand is, why such a question gets posted in
the
Si-List? You have a need? Fine! I understand! Then higher IP lawyer follow
the
legal process or what ever the legal process is, etc and get what you want.
Oh
by the way I don't buy the argument of " vendor went belly up" because you
should always do second source and risk management. How do we know
while we advising somebody for so called "Justifiable Reason" somebody
else is not taking advantage of information for ill purposes. The bottom
line is:
" There is no right reason to do a wrong thing."
Regards;
Don Pakbaz
Silicon Solutions Engineering
IBM Systems & Technology Group
"Nagel
Michael-amn029"
<Michael.Nagel@mo To
torola.com> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: cc
si-list-bounce@fr
eelists.org Subject
[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
Engineering
05/22/2006 08:12
AM
Please respond to
Michael.Nagel@mot
orola.com
Good point - the copyright on PCB artwork.
I agree that these situations may exist, but as Kedar did not=20
elaborate much on this, doubts are allowed.
When the company developing the board(s) goes out of business,
they leave a larger trace behind than many people imagine.
The PCB manufacturer they use has the Gerber files and I doubt that=20
they disappear immediately when the originator of these files
goes out of business.
A PCB manufacturer will not hand out the data to another company
except when the originator agrees. This is merely a question of ethics,
when customers get to know this, the PCB manufacturer is out of
business.=20
Once we are in the "middle ground" where the original manufacturer does
not
exist anymore, access to this data (which might still be in one of the
back-ups)
can be discussed.
Reverse Engineering - even with good reason - has always a bad taste,
but=20
that's my very personal view.
Michael Nagel
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of JaMi Smith
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:53 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: JaMi Smith
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available,
even from the board house . . .
I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their doors,
without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data.
I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less
than 20 components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards
for over 25 years, from the same board house, that went out of business
before he could make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand
taped artwork, where all that he could lay his hands on was film - there
never were Gerbers. The board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the
board for him from scratch, using all of the original dimensions and
physical part locations, so that it would fit into his case, which he
had also been re-ording from someone else for over 25 years, and made
him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and even submitted it
electronically to several other board houses for him, so that he could
continue his legitimate business selling his original design as he has
been doing for over 25 years.
These things really do happen.
On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from
me and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of
revenue for him, not to mention other problems.
Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable,
although very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if
the "pirate"
doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the
"pirate"
did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of the
layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyrite
violation, which he did.
There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you may
be legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes
belly up and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying
that module anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who
is not even there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or
simply says "go ahead and make your own". This too actually happens,
more often than one would expect, especially in todays economy.
I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago,
where they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data
Exchange.
I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject of
Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File
Format", should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with
Non Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for
Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that
seemed to agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the
subject, so it "fell by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX)
"emailing list" for a while, but was conveinently dropped in due course.
I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start
thinking about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other
Priprietary Rights, when it comes to their Designs, and specifically
with respect to things such as "Gerber Files", and other types of files
containing "Design Data", and specifically think about including
"Statements" regarding such "Files"
within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically
within other documents such as a Purchase Order..
Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the
standard "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we
used for all of our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in
small print in one of the corners of each drawing. Many times this has
been carried over to "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has
this ever been done with actual "files" themselves. I would recommend
that all in this "forum" give a little thought to what they can do
within their respective companies, to protect themselves. I would
minimumally recommend including a text file in your standard "zipped"
manufacturing file package that you send to the board house or assembly
house, stating something to the effect that "All files contained herein
are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner of said files,
and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such,
specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, blah
blah blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the
Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., ...
Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your company
and /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain
ownership of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need
to.
This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore",
for "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific
countries here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure
that everyone has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing
the "off-shore manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves.
This too has really happened.
If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your
own "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation.
And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very
appropriate topic of conversation for this forum.
Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal
with, what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have
actually encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do
"reverse engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist.
And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes,
multilayered boards can in fact be "reverse engineered".
JaMi Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not
available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was
fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files used.
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
Kedar P Apte wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> I was expecting this Question - never mind
> I am not in that business -
> I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to
understand.
>
>
> Regards,
> Kedar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM
> To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>
>
> Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else'
> design? Who helps a thief?
>
> If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's
> corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are
> many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts
payable.
>
>
> Steve.
> At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote:
>
>> Hi All Gurus,
>> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi
Layered
PCB.
>>
>> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get
gerbers/netlist
out
>> of a multilayered PCB.
>>
>> May be by x-ray method or any other way.
>>
>> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out with
it's
>> schematic.
>>
>> I need information about how to do this task.
>>
>> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any..
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kedar
>>
>> http://www.patni.com
>> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions.
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