[SI-LIST] OT: Personally Filter "OT:" or quit reading and delete?
- From: "Andrew W. Riley III" <drew3rdof3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "SI - LIST" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:37:39 -0700
Howdy,
Please stop reading here.
This is the most panties-all-in-a-bunch-about-OT-threads forum I have ever
had the pleasure of lurking in. I am so baffled that people who do not want
to be bothered, read OTs and then reply to stop them. Granted, Agathon did
not preface his initial reply with "OT:" or "RANT:" or whatever. However, I
really did quit reading Agathon's reply after the second sentence until
after I was on my own time. (I got a long drive home :)
So many subscribers. How many of them post/reply? Why. I can still count
mine.
Sorry, went OTT.
However, I do agree with Ray in that posts need to be kept to a professional
standard so I apologise for my third sentence. I also believe that OTs need
to be labeled as such even if in doubt.
Cheers!
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "agathon" <hreidmarkailen@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <pchauhan@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <praveen.srikantaiah@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "si-list" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<paul@xxxxxxx>; <James.Freeman@xxxxxxx>; <caparadi@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: OT: Job Opening at Wipro Technologies
> Prakash,
> You don't need to take offense. There's nothing in what I said that
> implies
> I preclude partnerships, trade, etc. The devil's in the details. And
> things
> like sovereignty -- the U.S. kind. My harshness is for what, prima facie,
> appear as false arguments -- not meant as personal attack. Forgive me,
> for
> I cannot pass up an opportunity to pull the curtain away and declare the
> Emperor naked.
>
> Just do a thought experiment: what if the same offenses were perpetrated
> against a group in your country? But, that requires that you know _all_
> the
> details, the FACTS, something which is most likely not true, judging from
> the arguments you pose.
>
> [I supposedly said] "Indian companies are Fraudulent, Indian workers are
> incompetent or stupid or both..."
>
> Wrong. My comments were narrow or from my direct experience of over 10
> yrs.
> with the situation. Further, some of my friends are Indians, as they say,
> and I have no problem in general. My issues are specific. Stick to the
> facts; they are defined as applying to certain companies and some broad
> U.S.
> policies. Your reaction above is the same as the ethno-centric apologists
> for, & advocates of, illegal immig. into the U.S. : attack the messenger
> as
> "immoral" and misstate what was said. Aren't you aware that argument
> appears instantly silly?
>
> I don't care who the workers are; they could be from Mars. They are not
> the
> perpetrators. (But, Martians might be a special case.) It's typical of
> human denial-think to cast the "bigot" accusation as an automatic defense,
> so I understand.
>
> "...you hurled at a company that you have not worked for and to a country
> you have not lived in."
>
> It's _irrelevant_ that I haven't worked for Wipro or lived in India. I'll
> give you a minute to ponder that... That comment just reflects apparent
> denial-think. I AM A U.S. CITIZEN and have certain concerns, just like
> any
> citizen of any country. What about that is not understood? Your
> response
> is that I would see it differently if only I'd lived in India? If
> anything,
> the opposite would occur.
>
> "I also tried to rebut some of your statements but this is not something
> easily done," ...
>
> I agree. There might be a reason for that. :-)
> You see, rhetoric is flimsy against facts, or didn't you know? Is that a
> strange concept? _That_ is the key question it seems.
>
> "The US needs India to stay competitive in Hi-Tech. " -
>
> Uh... I think it's the reverse, dear friend, big time. It's the globalist
> corporations that need cheap Indian labor to privatize the profits by
> socializing the costs: disenfranchise U.S. citizens and import huge trade
> deficit growth, then pocket the profits. Economics ... aw, forget it.
>
> Nevertheless, you state a fact that has been forced upon us, as an
> externality, by the corporatocracy. Google "economic externality". So,
> it's corporations that require corruption of our laws, to sustain their
> labor arbitrage. It's U.S. corporate media & Congress that have
> propagandized the citizenry and the corporate lobby swamped Congress with
> that nonsense argument. It's a classic ruse: create or fabricate the
> situation and then bemoan it to get more of what really caused it. Little
> 8-yr. old kids are really good at that. Do you know what naivete really
> really looks like? Bubble-mode in the 90s required some outsourcing for
> bubble growth. Nothing more. "Need"? Since when? All so suddenly?
> Because of the mystery plague I mentioned in my 1st post? Really, tell
> us. Let us in on it. We're waiting.
>
> "The US has money and Ideas, India has the human resources..."
>
> Re-read the above. India has the cheap labor. Your statement is
> insulting: implies we don't have the human resources. This isn't the
> stereotyped Indian arrogance is it? You see, a "free market" is deemed ok
> for capital markets, but not so desirable to the corporatocracy when it
> comes to the _labor_ market. The fairy visions you seem to describe, of a
> golden rainbow land are those whipped up by the corporate wand and some
> kool-aid. You have drunk deep from the well. Actually, in a fair labor
> market, without interference, local wages would rise, bringing in more to
> the profession, thus reducing wages back to a norm. But, that takes too
> long for Wall Street, esp. when the U.S. has subtle and overt societal
> problems undermining education for decades. So, now you see. Your
> sentence
> sounds all lovely and natural. The reality is that it's fluff, a facade
> eminently easy to swallow for denial-thinkers. It's an argument made
> simply
> to justify your benefits, thereby the violation of our sovereignty and
> jobs. I like it: just a big pool of "money and ideas" floating around in
> a
> big hypersphere somewhere, devoid of a citizenry with rights, just waiting
> for the canny to come along and partake of. Are you serious? Do you
> take
> us for fools?
>
> "...to allow these ideas to be implemented in a cost effective way."
>
> Cost effective. For _exactly_ who? The ones who lost jobs? Who? More
> fluff. This is just embarassing. Are you not embarassed? The
> cost-effectiveness is the trading of U.S. jobs for cheap labor, as already
> explained. Another example: The social system in India has found it
> cost-effective to keep millions in the dirt for centuries. Well then,
> must
> be ok. Said another way, it's the "privatize the profits and socialize
> the
> costs" game. The cost effectiveness is achieved by the loss of our U.S.
> opportunities ... but WE the people have defined our gov't as existing for
> sovereign benefit, not corporate benefit exclusively. The 'free trade'
> agreements are a high art form of this corruption. India has been
> victimized by them, by multinationals in the past (research DuPont and
> grain
> seed patents if you care so much about India).
> "The dotcom bust was a far larger cause of job losses and economic
> hardships
> than H1B visas. In fact the H1B contractors were the first to be laid off
> when the downturn arrived."
>
> Prove it. So, H-1B was used to help create the bubble and so then they
> lost
> when it burst. What's your point? To help me make my point? Huh? And
> H-1B lost jobs isn't wholly true...You should google: sun h1 lawsuit .
> And, just recently the world heard about a law firm on youtube explaining
> how to screw the U.S. worker, below. And - hot off the presses - the CRS
> reports on H-1B/L-1...
>
> Programmer's Guild Video - Highlights on how to screw the U.S. worker, by
> Cohen & Grigsby law firm
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
> Goodbye To The City Upon A Hill And To Its Fabled Economy
> http://vdare.com/roberts/070623_economy.htm (disclaimer: I don't
> associate
> with either polit. party)
> Congressional Report documents that H-1b violates the U.S. worker
> protections of the Immigration and Nationality Act
> http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2007/05/congressional-report-documents-that-h.html
>
>
> "The H1B program was invaluable in resolving the Y2K bug ..."
>
> Now yer gettin' into comedy. I think they better start programming a
> better
> Indian native software ecosystem so India won't be just slaves for the
> other
> countries' application needs. Better get your own. Might actually be
> part
> of something organic. You know, home grown, synergistically part of
> something lifting India up by its own bootstraps, benefits spreading
> internally, fostering native growth, independent of other's needs. Know
> what I mean? Then comparative advantage (look it up) can take over and
> sovereign countries' competition can proceed.
>
> "American firms were able to survive the lean times after the dotcom bust
> better because of cost cutting that they could afford to do, thanks to
> outsourcing."
>
> Uh oh... I don't think you'll be happy you mentioned that ... you forgot
> to
> look at the subtle truth. Again. To wit:
>
> In U.S. history it's always been the bubble-modes that have destroyed the
> bubble-heads, letting the few survivors take advantage of the surplus
> capacity to leverage true progress, as in the telegraph and railroad
> bubbles, here in the 19th century. Any artificial means that the
> corporate
> no-thinkers used to survive dotcom has left some intact, inhibiting their
> death and the efficiency of the takeover by the better prepared and the
> consolidators. And delaying, thereby magnifying, the inevitable
> reckoning. But, you claim that artificial life-support is good. More
> economic no-think. That life-support was at the expense of a true labor
> market and every U.S. citizen's sovereign rights, in favor of the
> corporations' right to suck the blood wherever it can, on life support.
> It
> does so by "exporting the labor function" as Barron's printed in an
> interview (details below).
>
> Reference: "Bubblicious" by D. Gross. I'm not praising bubbles as
> engines,
> just declaring _reality_. Understand? Now, U.S. workers are the losers
> by
> artifice and a future much worse stock market unwinding is being made more
> probable.
>
> Barron's, June 4th, interview of S. Leuthold: "...48% of S&P 500 earnings
> come from foreign operations.... (corporate 2008) Earnings may not reflect
> (an actual recession in 2008) because we have exported so much of the
> labor
> function. But it looks like maybe the consumer, for the first time in my
> lifetime, may actually be tapped out."
>
> "The Real Cost of Offshoring" - Business Week Mag.
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_25/b4039001.htm?chan=search
>
> Privatize the profits, socialize the costs. Then they have the cajones to
> say 'we must continue, in order to create U.S. jobs'. The drug-addict
> argument, fed to the willing. Any idiot can see that if a corporation
> sells
> out its home country then its charter needs to be revoked, before it
> destroys its own market.
>
> The U.S. corporation is the biggest perpetrator of corporate socialism in
> our lifetimes. You see, socialism of that kind is just fine for them.
> The
> public, mostly no-thinkers, don't have a concept about how to form a
> concept
> about it. They are as immobile slabs in the Matrix. First base is out of
> the question. It doesn't exist.
>
> I come neither to praise nor bury corporations per se; that is _not_ the
> point.... (Yep, some better think of some other denial-think objection to
> my argument.)
>
> "If US IT companies stop outsourcing, they might end up in same boat as US
> manufacturing, automotive and agricultural industries (not efficient
> enough
> to compete in a global market)."
>
> Aaargh. You mean if they DON'T stop outsourcing, friend. When mfg and
> the
> basics are exported or corrupted by 'free' trade deals then death of the
> body is inevitable. This is a basic principle of what's happened in our,
> and others', industries. If it happens, it'll be because of corporate
> moron-think, "free" trade agreements and the vaporizing of the last
> remnant
> of common sense in a corporate-bought Congress.
>
> You pose the drug-addict argument: to stay feeling ok I need more of this
> that's killing me. Right. Do you expect those with a brain to buy that?
> The rest of the world has lagged so pervasively that we've not had enough
> competition, creating our own lack of keeping up with what we need from
> our
> own people, to some degree. That is our challenge, not how to better take
> heroin to cover the wounds.
>
> More likely: if we stop outsourcing then it's India that will have to
> figure
> out what to do, on its own. We're already retrenching, as I stated in my
> 1st post, for good reasons, incl. those not seen by U.S. corporate
> no-thinkers - like blown schedules or projects (ex: Intel's failed
> Whitefield cpu, courtesy of India...ouch), tremendous INefficiencies,
> etcetera. It's arrangements like NAFTA that screwed both Mexican and U.S.
> workers and the ecology on both sides - another thread in the same fabric
> discussed here. The "efficient enough" blather is no-speak for "cheap
> labor". The addict wants his drugs more and more pure, until he dies.
> Your
> quoted argument above speaks volumes about either your own awareness of
> reality or your low opinion of the typical si-lister, (except in the case
> of
> Lee Ritchey) or both. Sorry if I disappoint you (and, seems likely, Lee).
>
>
> "The Middle class in India will be the same size as the entire US
> population, by 2025."
>
> Not our problem. 'Oh yes it is your problem; it's a global market.'
> Wrong. Reread the above, and Adam Smith and Keynes and.... Anyway, if
> that's true, I think your people & gov't better "hop to it" & get on the
> ball without subverting other countries' sovereignty.
>
> "India and China are a huge market opportunity for US firms to sell their
> stuff to ..."
>
> It better happen right quick. I don't see the Indian gov't doing much,
> just
> relying on exporting educated people to steal U.S. jobs by our corruption
> and India's lobbying OUR Congress and buying them off. Not a long term
> strategy if you ask me. And, won't happen if the music stops due to
> rampant
> unsustainable growth (esp. China), more crud & poisoned imports from
> China,
> a simultaneous U.S. tapped out consumer, yet to come finality in housing
> debt here - adding to interest rates, and what happens when all the
> current U.S. hedge-fund/pvt equity LBO activity requires a payback on
> stripped assets within a few years. Do your reading. Don't you know
> we're
> near a bubble-friendly situation in developing-world stocks? What will
> Indians use to pay for our "stuff"? Effectively dollars siphoned from
> unemploying Americans? A crashed dollar? And when the music stops? Then
> what?
>
> "[In India] things are getting better with increased transparency in
> government and a free and raucous media."
>
> Well then, time t' cut y'all loose, since ya got the hang of it by now.
> Good luck, partner. Ain't spreading democracy great? It was fun while it
> lasted. See ya down the trail a bit. ;-) In the free market. Guess
> how fast your gov't would change, or revolution occur, if the
> H-1B/L-1/outsourcing job spigot was turned off? I think you'd see
> something more than "raucous" then. That should be a thought experiment
> that you use as a "performance metric" of the outsourcing strategy. Just
> like the Mexican go'vt, yours allows its people to benefit from our
> corrupted but open society without having to make their own changes, and
> its
> done at OUR expense. And you want to lecture us about the right and wrong
> of this? Do you understand, now, why those arguments look insane?
>
> "You had slavery and segregation in the not too distant past in the USA.
> As
> for corruption and fraudulent behavior: Watergate, Iran Contra affair,
> Iraq
> war, Enron, Worldcom.. There are plenty of examples where the system
> failed
> leading to lives and livelihoods lost."
>
> Hmmm... Right. Is that offerred as a justification of H-1B fraud. Now
> you're reaching, bud. Still, I agree with those facts... and you cite our
> gov't and corporations. A coincidence? You keep on helping me make my
> points; thank you. And you have castes that show no sign of abating,
> oppressing people for eons. You forgot, also, that we & the Spanish
> helped
> bring over & reinvent a favorite old-world tool: ethnic cleansing – for
> the
> genocide against the native Americans. Anyway, the subject is India and
> our mutual corruption, not the Wild West or Watergate.
>
> "We are all human beings, trying to secure the best for ourselves and our
> families and communities."
>
> Dude! You need to accomplish it internally and with _fair_ trade, not at
> the expense of another's sovereignty. I hear the same argument from the
> supporters of illegal immigration. Do your securing as Indians, by
> changing
> your own country, and not as thieves (your gov't, that is). Is that too
> logical? If I came into your home and forced you to hire me for chores
> _and_ said you can't hire your neighbor or son, what would you say? If
> someone claimed to be the house owner and said it's all legal would you
> just
> believe it, when you know you have the house title? Do you know what the
> famouse aphorism means: "There is no honor amongst thieves."? This is
> how
> our corrupt Corporate-Congressional Complex violates our own laws in order
> to privatize the profits and socialize the resultant costs.
>
> America did it alone (with France's help). So can you, believe me, with
> normal trade, partnership, etc. But first you need either the guts or to
> be
> forced, to have no other way out. Our treasonous Corporate-Congress
> Complex
> gives you another way out, at the expenses I've outlined above. Once we
> have outlawed these visas in their present form, the U.S. can then
> determine
> exactly what our needs are, with 110% protection of U.S. citizens (based,
> nevertheless, on merit).
>
> "Bad mouthing and scape-goating someone else will not solve the problems
> of
> this world."
>
> Scape-goating? By now, I certainly hope you realize the utter
> mind-bending
> unreality of that supposition. It implies I've misplaced the blame or am
> diverting attention away from the real cause. It's the ol' "piss on my
> leg
> then tell me it's raining". Just like our no-think Senators, you seem to
> want to divert attention with the base, emotional, twist - away from the
> _FACTS_. In short, scape-goat my arguments as simplistic or bigoted.
> You
> sound just like the illegal immigrants here who talk as if their theft is
> sanctioned by our own government .... oh, wait a minute....
>
> "Thank You for listening to my rant. I don't expect it to change
> anything."
>
> You're right. It just increased my amazement as we drift down Alice's
> rabbit hole. The sights are unique & marvelous. I wouldn't miss it for
> the
> world.
>
> Anyway, through it all, America sleeps the sleep of the damned.
> This country will _only_ be taken apart from within.
> Meanwhile, we are treated to sophomoric arguments from the foreign
> victims,
> and Lee Ritchey, as well.
> Just goes to show ... Elvis is everywhere.
>
> ------------
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