[SI-LIST] Re: OT: Job Opening at Wipro Technologies
- From: <art_porter@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <hreidmarkailen@xxxxxxxxx>, <pchauhan@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <praveen.srikantaiah@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:28:56 -0600
This discussion seems to have continued long enough. Maybe the =
participants who care and want to continue it, could continue it outside =
the SI-LIST. =20
Art Porter
Agilent Technologies
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
On Behalf Of agathon
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 3:02 PM
To: pchauhan@xxxxxxxxxxx; praveen.srikantaiah@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxx; =
James.Freeman@xxxxxxx; caparadi@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: OT: Job Opening at Wipro Technologies
Prakash,
You don't need to take offense. There's nothing in what I said that =
implies
I preclude partnerships, trade, etc. The devil's in the details. And =
things
like sovereignty -- the U.S. kind. My harshness is for what, prima =
facie,
appear as false arguments -- not meant as personal attack. Forgive me, =
for
I cannot pass up an opportunity to pull the curtain away and declare the
Emperor naked.
Just do a thought experiment: what if the same offenses were =
perpetrated
against a group in your country? But, that requires that you know _all_ =
the
details, the FACTS, something which is most likely not true, judging =
from
the arguments you pose.
[I supposedly said] "Indian companies are Fraudulent, Indian workers are
incompetent or stupid or both..."
Wrong. My comments were narrow or from my direct experience of over 10 =
yrs.
with the situation. Further, some of my friends are Indians, as they =
say,
and I have no problem in general. My issues are specific. Stick to the
facts; they are defined as applying to certain companies and some broad =
U.S.
policies. Your reaction above is the same as the ethno-centric =
apologists
for, & advocates of, illegal immig. into the U.S. : attack the =
messenger as
"immoral" and misstate what was said. Aren't you aware that argument
appears instantly silly?
I don't care who the workers are; they could be from Mars. They are not =
the
perpetrators. (But, Martians might be a special case.) It's typical =
of
human denial-think to cast the "bigot" accusation as an automatic =
defense,
so I understand.
"...you hurled at a company that you have not worked for and to a =
country
you have not lived in."
It's _irrelevant_ that I haven't worked for Wipro or lived in India. =
I'll
give you a minute to ponder that... That comment just reflects apparent
denial-think. I AM A U.S. CITIZEN and have certain concerns, just like =
any
citizen of any country. What about that is not understood? Your =
response
is that I would see it differently if only I'd lived in India? If =
anything,
the opposite would occur.
"I also tried to rebut some of your statements but this is not something
easily done," ...
I agree. There might be a reason for that. :-)
You see, rhetoric is flimsy against facts, or didn't you know? Is that =
a
strange concept? _That_ is the key question it seems.
"The US needs India to stay competitive in Hi-Tech. " -
Uh... I think it's the reverse, dear friend, big time. It's the =
globalist
corporations that need cheap Indian labor to privatize the profits by
socializing the costs: disenfranchise U.S. citizens and import huge =
trade
deficit growth, then pocket the profits. Economics ... aw, forget it.
Nevertheless, you state a fact that has been forced upon us, as an
externality, by the corporatocracy. Google "economic externality". So,
it's corporations that require corruption of our laws, to sustain their
labor arbitrage. It's U.S. corporate media & Congress that have
propagandized the citizenry and the corporate lobby swamped Congress =
with
that nonsense argument. It's a classic ruse: create or fabricate the
situation and then bemoan it to get more of what really caused it. =
Little
8-yr. old kids are really good at that. Do you know what naivete really
really looks like? Bubble-mode in the 90s required some outsourcing for
bubble growth. Nothing more. "Need"? Since when? All so suddenly?
Because of the mystery plague I mentioned in my 1st post? Really, tell
us. Let us in on it. We're waiting.
"The US has money and Ideas, India has the human resources..."
Re-read the above. India has the cheap labor. Your statement is
insulting: implies we don't have the human resources. This isn't the
stereotyped Indian arrogance is it? You see, a "free market" is deemed =
ok
for capital markets, but not so desirable to the corporatocracy when it
comes to the _labor_ market. The fairy visions you seem to describe, of =
a
golden rainbow land are those whipped up by the corporate wand and some
kool-aid. You have drunk deep from the well. Actually, in a fair labor
market, without interference, local wages would rise, bringing in more =
to
the profession, thus reducing wages back to a norm. But, that takes too
long for Wall Street, esp. when the U.S. has subtle and overt societal
problems undermining education for decades. So, now you see. Your =
sentence
sounds all lovely and natural. The reality is that it's fluff, a facade
eminently easy to swallow for denial-thinkers. It's an argument made =
simply
to justify your benefits, thereby the violation of our sovereignty and
jobs. I like it: just a big pool of "money and ideas" floating around =
in a
big hypersphere somewhere, devoid of a citizenry with rights, just =
waiting
for the canny to come along and partake of. Are you serious? Do you =
take
us for fools?
"...to allow these ideas to be implemented in a cost effective way."
Cost effective. For _exactly_ who? The ones who lost jobs? Who? More
fluff. This is just embarassing. Are you not embarassed? The
cost-effectiveness is the trading of U.S. jobs for cheap labor, as =
already
explained. Another example: The social system in India has found it
cost-effective to keep millions in the dirt for centuries. Well then, =
must
be ok. Said another way, it's the "privatize the profits and socialize =
the
costs" game. The cost effectiveness is achieved by the loss of our U.S.
opportunities ... but WE the people have defined our gov't as existing =
for
sovereign benefit, not corporate benefit exclusively. The 'free trade'
agreements are a high art form of this corruption. India has been
victimized by them, by multinationals in the past (research DuPont and =
grain
seed patents if you care so much about India).
"The dotcom bust was a far larger cause of job losses and economic =
hardships
than H1B visas. In fact the H1B contractors were the first to be laid =
off
when the downturn arrived."
Prove it. So, H-1B was used to help create the bubble and so then they =
lost
when it burst. What's your point? To help me make my point? Huh? And
H-1B lost jobs isn't wholly true...You should google: sun h1 lawsuit .
And, just recently the world heard about a law firm on youtube =
explaining
how to screw the U.S. worker, below. And - hot off the presses - the =
CRS
reports on H-1B/L-1...
Programmer's Guild Video - Highlights on how to screw the U.S. worker, =
by
Cohen & Grigsby law firm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTCbFEgFajGU
Goodbye To The City Upon A Hill And To Its Fabled Economy
http://vdare.com/roberts/070623_economy.htm (disclaimer: I don't =
associate
with either polit. party)
Congressional Report documents that H-1b violates the U.S. worker
protections of the Immigration and Nationality Act
http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2007/05/congressional-report-documen=
ts-that-h.html
"The H1B program was invaluable in resolving the Y2K bug ..."
Now yer gettin' into comedy. I think they better start programming a =
better
Indian native software ecosystem so India won't be just slaves for the =
other
countries' application needs. Better get your own. Might actually be =
part
of something organic. You know, home grown, synergistically part of
something lifting India up by its own bootstraps, benefits spreading
internally, fostering native growth, independent of other's needs. Know
what I mean? Then comparative advantage (look it up) can take over and
sovereign countries' competition can proceed.
"American firms were able to survive the lean times after the dotcom =
bust
better because of cost cutting that they could afford to do, thanks to
outsourcing."
Uh oh... I don't think you'll be happy you mentioned that ... you =
forgot to
look at the subtle truth. Again. To wit:
In U.S. history it's always been the bubble-modes that have destroyed =
the
bubble-heads, letting the few survivors take advantage of the surplus
capacity to leverage true progress, as in the telegraph and railroad
bubbles, here in the 19th century. Any artificial means that the =
corporate
no-thinkers used to survive dotcom has left some intact, inhibiting =
their
death and the efficiency of the takeover by the better prepared and the
consolidators. And delaying, thereby magnifying, the inevitable
reckoning. But, you claim that artificial life-support is good. More
economic no-think. That life-support was at the expense of a true labor
market and every U.S. citizen's sovereign rights, in favor of the
corporations' right to suck the blood wherever it can, on life support. =
It
does so by "exporting the labor function" as Barron's printed in an
interview (details below).
Reference: "Bubblicious" by D. Gross. I'm not praising bubbles as =
engines,
just declaring _reality_. Understand? Now, U.S. workers are the losers =
by
artifice and a future much worse stock market unwinding is being made =
more
probable.
Barron's, June 4th, interview of S. Leuthold: "...48% of S&P 500 =
earnings
come from foreign operations.... (corporate 2008) Earnings may not =
reflect
(an actual recession in 2008) because we have exported so much of the =
labor
function. But it looks like maybe the consumer, for the first time in =
my
lifetime, may actually be tapped out."
"The Real Cost of Offshoring" - Business Week Mag.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_25/b4039001.htm?chan=3Dse=
arch
Privatize the profits, socialize the costs. Then they have the cajones =
to
say 'we must continue, in order to create U.S. jobs'. The drug-addict
argument, fed to the willing. Any idiot can see that if a corporation =
sells
out its home country then its charter needs to be revoked, before it
destroys its own market.
The U.S. corporation is the biggest perpetrator of corporate socialism =
in
our lifetimes. You see, socialism of that kind is just fine for them. =
The
public, mostly no-thinkers, don't have a concept about how to form a =
concept
about it. They are as immobile slabs in the Matrix. First base is out =
of
the question. It doesn't exist.
I come neither to praise nor bury corporations per se; that is _not_ the
point.... (Yep, some better think of some other denial-think objection =
to
my argument.)
"If US IT companies stop outsourcing, they might end up in same boat as =
US
manufacturing, automotive and agricultural industries (not efficient =
enough
to compete in a global market)."
Aaargh. You mean if they DON'T stop outsourcing, friend. When mfg and =
the
basics are exported or corrupted by 'free' trade deals then death of the
body is inevitable. This is a basic principle of what's happened in =
our,
and others', industries. If it happens, it'll be because of corporate
moron-think, "free" trade agreements and the vaporizing of the last =
remnant
of common sense in a corporate-bought Congress.
You pose the drug-addict argument: to stay feeling ok I need more of =
this
that's killing me. Right. Do you expect those with a brain to buy =
that?
The rest of the world has lagged so pervasively that we've not had =
enough
competition, creating our own lack of keeping up with what we need from =
our
own people, to some degree. That is our challenge, not how to better =
take
heroin to cover the wounds.
More likely: if we stop outsourcing then it's India that will have to =
figure
out what to do, on its own. We're already retrenching, as I stated in =
my
1st post, for good reasons, incl. those not seen by U.S. corporate
no-thinkers - like blown schedules or projects (ex: Intel's failed
Whitefield cpu, courtesy of India...ouch), tremendous INefficiencies,
etcetera. It's arrangements like NAFTA that screwed both Mexican and =
U.S.
workers and the ecology on both sides - another thread in the same =
fabric
discussed here. The "efficient enough" blather is no-speak for "cheap
labor". The addict wants his drugs more and more pure, until he dies. =
Your
quoted argument above speaks volumes about either your own awareness of
reality or your low opinion of the typical si-lister, (except in the =
case of
Lee Ritchey) or both. Sorry if I disappoint you (and, seems likely, =
Lee).
"The Middle class in India will be the same size as the entire US
population, by 2025."
Not our problem. 'Oh yes it is your problem; it's a global market.'
Wrong. Reread the above, and Adam Smith and Keynes and.... Anyway, if
that's true, I think your people & gov't better "hop to it" & get on the
ball without subverting other countries' sovereignty.
"India and China are a huge market opportunity for US firms to sell =
their
stuff to ..."
It better happen right quick. I don't see the Indian gov't doing much, =
just
relying on exporting educated people to steal U.S. jobs by our =
corruption
and India's lobbying OUR Congress and buying them off. Not a long term
strategy if you ask me. And, won't happen if the music stops due to =
rampant
unsustainable growth (esp. China), more crud & poisoned imports from =
China,
a simultaneous U.S. tapped out consumer, yet to come finality in housing
debt here - adding to interest rates, and what happens when all the
current U.S. hedge-fund/pvt equity LBO activity requires a payback on
stripped assets within a few years. Do your reading. Don't you know =
we're
near a bubble-friendly situation in developing-world stocks? What will
Indians use to pay for our "stuff"? Effectively dollars siphoned from
unemploying Americans? A crashed dollar? And when the music stops? =
Then
what?
"[In India] things are getting better with increased transparency in
government and a free and raucous media."
Well then, time t' cut y'all loose, since ya got the hang of it by now.
Good luck, partner. Ain't spreading democracy great? It was fun while =
it
lasted. See ya down the trail a bit. ;-) In the free market. =
Guess
how fast your gov't would change, or revolution occur, if the
H-1B/L-1/outsourcing job spigot was turned off? I think you'd see
something more than "raucous" then. That should be a thought experiment
that you use as a "performance metric" of the outsourcing strategy. =
Just
like the Mexican go'vt, yours allows its people to benefit from our
corrupted but open society without having to make their own changes, and =
its
done at OUR expense. And you want to lecture us about the right and =
wrong
of this? Do you understand, now, why those arguments look insane?
"You had slavery and segregation in the not too distant past in the USA. =
As
for corruption and fraudulent behavior: Watergate, Iran Contra affair, =
Iraq
war, Enron, Worldcom.. There are plenty of examples where the system =
failed
leading to lives and livelihoods lost."
Hmmm... Right. Is that offerred as a justification of H-1B fraud. Now
you're reaching, bud. Still, I agree with those facts... and you cite =
our
gov't and corporations. A coincidence? You keep on helping me make my
points; thank you. And you have castes that show no sign of abating,
oppressing people for eons. You forgot, also, that we & the Spanish =
helped
bring over & reinvent a favorite old-world tool: ethnic cleansing - for =
the
genocide against the native Americans. Anyway, the subject is India =
and
our mutual corruption, not the Wild West or Watergate.
"We are all human beings, trying to secure the best for ourselves and =
our
families and communities."
Dude! You need to accomplish it internally and with _fair_ trade, not =
at
the expense of another's sovereignty. I hear the same argument from the
supporters of illegal immigration. Do your securing as Indians, by =
changing
your own country, and not as thieves (your gov't, that is). Is that too
logical? If I came into your home and forced you to hire me for chores
_and_ said you can't hire your neighbor or son, what would you say? If
someone claimed to be the house owner and said it's all legal would you =
just
believe it, when you know you have the house title? Do you know what =
the
famouse aphorism means: "There is no honor amongst thieves."? This is =
how
our corrupt Corporate-Congressional Complex violates our own laws in =
order
to privatize the profits and socialize the resultant costs.
America did it alone (with France's help). So can you, believe me, with
normal trade, partnership, etc. But first you need either the guts or =
to be
forced, to have no other way out. Our treasonous Corporate-Congress =
Complex
gives you another way out, at the expenses I've outlined above. Once we
have outlawed these visas in their present form, the U.S. can then =
determine
exactly what our needs are, with 110% protection of U.S. citizens =
(based,
nevertheless, on merit).
"Bad mouthing and scape-goating someone else will not solve the problems =
of
this world."
Scape-goating? By now, I certainly hope you realize the utter =
mind-bending
unreality of that supposition. It implies I've misplaced the blame or =
am
diverting attention away from the real cause. It's the ol' "piss on my =
leg
then tell me it's raining". Just like our no-think Senators, you seem =
to
want to divert attention with the base, emotional, twist - away from the
_FACTS_. In short, scape-goat my arguments as simplistic or bigoted. =
You
sound just like the illegal immigrants here who talk as if their theft =
is
sanctioned by our own government .... oh, wait a minute....
"Thank You for listening to my rant. I don't expect it to change =
anything."
You're right. It just increased my amazement as we drift down Alice's
rabbit hole. The sights are unique & marvelous. I wouldn't miss it for =
the
world.
Anyway, through it all, America sleeps the sleep of the damned.
This country will _only_ be taken apart from within.
Meanwhile, we are treated to sophomoric arguments from the foreign =
victims,
and Lee Ritchey, as well.
Just goes to show ... Elvis is everywhere.
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