[SI-LIST] Re: Jitter transfer vs. accumulation

I know you have a hard time understanding the fact that the test you are
describing is not a valid test, and the zero-phase-margin-phenomenon
occurs only when you drive the power noise with too large an amplitude
because you are controlling the gain of the input with your noise
amplitude.  Your noise modulates the VCO directly and completely
by-passed the phase comparator input all together.  The gain limitation
of the phase comparator is taken out of the loop.  This has everything
to do with the phase margin of the resulting circuit that you have
created.  But you have a hard time understanding that.  Most newer PLL
designs now have on-chip voltage regulator to filter and minimize the
effects of power noise.  But no voltage regulator will survive the type
of destructive tests that you do.  These tests do not happen with normal
operation.  I know you want a BMW that will survive a nuclear blast
because you think BMWs have a lot of sheet metals on the outside.  But I
am sure that you will not be willing to pay for the price when they make
such a car for you.  Enough of these senseless arguing.  
 

 

George 

 

Note: Effective October 14, 2006, My LSI Logic Email address will change
to: george.tang@xxxxxxx

Please update address books and email lists accordingly.

________________________________

From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:54 PM
To: Tang, George; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation

 

Once again, I don't think you get what I am saying.

Phase margin has NOTHING to do with the jitter accumulation test I am
talking about. In fact the more phase margin you have (by over damping
the loop) the more jitter you will accumulate due to power supply noise.
This has nothing to do with zero phase margin and I sincerely hope you
don't have a design that has zero degree phase margin.

The problem with the supply noise is as peripherals like DDR2/3 or CPU
FSB is catching up with the Gb I/O's, their SSO harmonics are getting
close to the band where the PLL vdd noise will severely impact the
jitter accumulation. And there is not much you can filter if it happens
inside the die.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tang, George [mailto:George.Tang@xxxxxxx]
        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:19 PM
        To: Chris Cheng; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation

        Chris, 

         

        I gave you the point that if you do a frequency sweep on the
power noise of a PLL (not a VCO), you can induce a growing resonance of
jitter eventually to the point that the PLL blows up (loses lock).  You
can call this "jitter accumulation" if you wish.  This happens simply
because the power noise modulates the VCO output.  The phase comparator
at the PLL input that is trying to keep track and correct the phase
difference between the VCO output and the RefClk input can no longer
correct the phase difference.  This is exactly the same as if you do a
frequency sweep at the RefClk input while the PLL power is kept noise
free.  The phase comparator at a certain frequency will no longer be
able to track and correct the phase difference between the VCO output
and the RefClk input.  You need to analyze the phase margin and gain
margin of the feedback control system to determine at what frequency the
system will blow up - when the phase margin becomes zero.  This is just
a simple control system analysis, not the black magic arithmetic you
described below.  You are also wrong about the DLL not blowing up.  The
DLL also needs to meet the phase margin requirement.  With enough power
noise at the right frequency, it will blow up, too.  You can reduce the
gain of the circuit to improve margin, but that decreases the PLL
performance.  The best way is to reduce the noise disturbance frequency,
or lower the RefClk jitter frequency - different approaches, same
effect.  Like I said in the previous email, you have found a peculiar
way to break the PLL, but the PLL is not designed to handle frequency
sweeps.  I fail to see the significance of the stories that you
describe.  

         

         

        George 

         

        Note: Effective October 14, 2006, My LSI Logic Email address
will change to: george.tang@xxxxxxx

        Please update address books and email lists accordingly.

        
________________________________


        From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:53 PM
        To: Tang, George; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation

         

        If I correct my statement here : "You will see the AC noise
induced on your PLL" to this :

        "You will see the AC noise induced JITTER on your PLL" , will
that make my statement better ?
        I don't know how much more clear I have to explain my view below
that I am a true believer of phase noise accumulation due to power
supply or substrate induced noise. Especially between the loop passband
to the reference frequency and I have explain why below also. You can
dig up many papers to study why this happen. Part of the originally
attraction of DLL verse PLL is because it doesn't have the 1/s
integration pole on the VCO, it is unconditional stable and therefore
you can shift your loop bandwidth to as close to the reference frequency
as you want, thereby decreasing the jitter accumulation. But if you drop
it down to 1/1667 of the reference frequency, you make it even worst
than what a PLL can do with proper loop dynamic.

        As to the comment about bicycle helmet running into a car, let's
do the math here. Start off with how small a fraction of the cycle of
jitter you can tolerate in radians. Divide by the VCO or VCDL gain in
radians per volt (which should be a big number). That's how much noise
you can live with in your VCO or VCDL per cycle. Now divide by how many
cycles the jitter can accumulate until the loop can correct itself (i.e.
the ratio between the reference frequency and the loop bandwidth, to
first order), and you will realize how little noise your VCO/VCDL can
tolerate before your jitter budget is out of spec at the right
frequency. And I can assure you if you hit it with the right frequency,
you can knock your PLL or your DLL jitter budget out with a surprisingly
small amount of noise. Don't take my word, do the experiment yourself on
any PLL/DLL you get your hand on. 

         

        
________________________________


        From: Tang, George [mailto:George.Tang@xxxxxxx]
        Sent: Wed 3/14/2007 8:13 PM
        To: Chris Cheng; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation

        By now, I believe you agree that VCO jitter does not accumulate.
If I
        modulate the VCO voltage with a 50mV low impedance power source
at a
        fixed frequency, the power noise will be fixed at 50mV (again,
low
        impedance), therefore, the output jitter will be fixed at a
certain
        amount.  No accumulation there.  For the PLL, that is a
different story.
        There is the refclk input the PLL tries to lock to and there is
the
        power noise disturbance.  Certainly, if you inject enough
voltage noise
        into power and do a frequency sweep, a wide bandwidth PLL will
blow up
        (loses lock) at some point.  But what is the point of this?
Power
        supply noises should be kept low, and they are usually switching
at a
        fixed frequency, not a sweeping frequency.  If you take a
bicycle helmet
        and run it over with a car, you tell the helmet maker that it
broke.
        The helmet maker would tell you that the helmet is not designed
to
        survive a car crash.  You simply found one way to break it.  I'm
sure
        there are a million different ways that will break it also. 
        
        Thanks,
        
        George
        
        
        Note: Effective October 14, 2006, My LSI Logic Email address
will change
        to: george.tang@xxxxxxx
        
        Please update address books and email lists accordingly.
        
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:21 PM
        To: Tang, George; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation
        
        How does the jitter get accumulated ?
        Let's do this experiment. AC isolate your PLLVDD, inject a fixed
        amplitude but varying frequency AC noise into your PLLVDD. In
        particular, sweep it between the pass band of the loop filter
and the
        reference clock frequency. You will see the AC noise induced on
your PLL
        supply get accumulated (bigger and bigger) as you sweep your
noise
        frequency from the refclk frequency down to your loop filter
pass band
        and graduately decrease as the phase detector finally be able to
correct
        the phase error induced by the AC VDD noise.
        The simple explanation is as AC power noise get injected into
your high
        gain VCO/VCDL, the phase error introduced is too fast (because
the
        modulation is beyond the pass band of the loop filter) to be
instantly
        corrected and required multiple cycles to accumulate enough
charge in
        the loop filter to pull back to the reference frequency. Hence
jitter
        accumulation.
        BTW, I believe there are many papers descripting the above
issue. And
        believe it or not, I tested your company's first ever PLL design
and
        wrote the first PLL filter app note for it while I was in
another
        computer company. The details are in there, I hope you can dig
it up
        again from somewhere :-D.
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tang, George [mailto:George.Tang@xxxxxxx]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:59 PM
        To: Chris Cheng; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation
        
        
        Now that you specify VCO, so let's talk about that.  A VCO is an
        oscillating circuit in which the oscillation frequency is
controlled by
        the voltage.  Now if you have power noise (say sinusoidal), you
are
        modulating the VCO so you have sinusoidal jitter at the output.
Where
        does the "jitter accumulation" come from?  I do not understand
the term
        you use. 
        
        I believe you also did not understand Vinu and Paul's comments
about
        capturing the received data signals into logic levels and
re-transmit
        with a separate reference clk driven PLL.  The PLL has only one
input --
        the ref_clk.  The PLL may have multiple phase output which can
be used
        to drive the phase interpolator input.  But there is still no
jitter
        accumulation there.  If you are talking about the recovered
clock, yes,
        the PLL jitter along with the CDR jitter plus the transmitter
jitter
        will add.  But some of this jitter will be filtered out by the
next
        stage PLL. 
        
        
        
        George
        
        
        Note: Effective October 14, 2006, My LSI Logic Email address
will change
        to: george.tang@xxxxxxx
        
        Please update address books and email lists accordingly.
        
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:14 PM
        To: Tang, George; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation
        
        I am not sure about that.
        I have to apologize I confuse everyone by using the term PLL and
you
        will automatically interpret it as the PLL that is related to
the Refclk
        generation in the receiving side. But I think the term VCO is a
better
        discription because it encompass both PLL and DLL. And VCO is
where the
        supply noise will be converted to phase noise (jitter
accumulation).
        The real question I have in the receiving area is the VCO in the
CDR of
        the receiving chip.
        As Vinu and Paul pointed out, if there is no Xtal input for the
Rx and
        the clock is completely recovered from the data, we probably
will agree
        that PLL dynamics hold there.
        However, even if we are talking about, and I think that's what
Vinu was
        refering to, a dual loop CDR with a seperate Rx clock PLL and
use phase
        interpolators for some kind of bang bang slave loop, you still
need a
        master phase generator using a DLL somewhere that will generate
those
        multi-phases. And that DLL will have a VCO and it will suffer
from VDD
        or substrate induced phase noise. This is independent of whether
the
        original refclk PLL dynamics. If you tell me that the
multi-phase
        generating DLL does not need to be held at 1/1667 bandwidth, all
my
        confusion is cleared.
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tang, George [mailto:George.Tang@xxxxxxx]
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:46 PM
        To: Chris Cheng; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation
        
        
        Chris,
        
        You sound very confused.  A receiver core has 2 types of inputs
--
        reference clock input and RX data channel input.  You have these
2 types
        of inputs mixed up completely.  Once you understand that they
are
        separate, most of your questions clear up automatically. 
        
        Thanks,
        
        George
        
        
        Note: Effective October 14, 2006, My LSI Logic Email address
will change
        to: george.tang@xxxxxxx
        
        Please update address books and email lists accordingly.
        
        
        -----Original Message-----
        From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
        On Behalf Of Chris Cheng
        Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:47 PM
        To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: [SI-LIST] Jitter transfer vs. accumulation
        
        This stream of questions has been in my mind for the pass few
years. And
        every time I went to DesignCon I ended up with more and more
questions
        to myself rather than answers. So let me try to clear this up
and let
        everyone hammer me back down to the ground :-D.
        Here it goes :
        
        It is a well know phenomenon that PLL suffers from jitter
accumulation.
        i.e. Supply and substrate noise induced on the ultra high gain
VCO
        resulting in jitter. Many ways have been invented to combat this
        including PLLVDD filters, on-chip regulators and most
importantly,
        adjusting the PLL filter loop dynamics. It can be shown (and
quite
        intuitively) that when you decrease the lock time and increase
the
        tracking bandwidth, you allow the PLL to correct itself quicker
with the
        induced jitter and thereby decreasing the peak to peak jitter.
        
        It is also a well known phenomenon that in the presence of input
jitter,
        the loop dynamics need to be adjusted to minimize the
propagation of the
        jitter. Worst there is a possibility of jitter peaking where the
jitter
        may be amplified for a narrow band of frequency. It can also be
shown
        (and again quite intuitively) that when you increase the lock
time and
        decrease the tracking bandwidth, you decrease the jitter
tracking of the
        PLL.
        
        So from the above, it is clear that the solutions to the two
problems
        are contradicting each other. If you believe you have a problem
with
        input jitter, you slow down your loop dynamics (or over-damped)
in your
        PLL. If  you believe you have supply ripples or noisy substrate,
you
        speed up your loop dynamics (well...at least make sure it is
stable and
        not under-damped).
        
        To go deeper a little bit, what exactly are the input jitter we
are
        talking about ? Well, let's use the convention jitter
definitions, Tj,
        Dj,Rj,DDj,ISI,DCD,Pj etc etc. For most of the multi-gigabit
systems I've
        seen, Dj seems to be the dominant component at the input in a
system
        environment. Within Dj, I believe the DDj part is relatively
high-speed.
        After all, your impulse response pre and post cursor dies down
after a
        few UIs and your alternating rise/fall edge clock (DCD) happens
in UI.
        The benefit of the PLL dynamics has little or no effect on such
high
        speed jitters. Most (but not all) of PLL loop dynamics are at
least 20x
        slower than the reference frequencies just to be stable. Any
jitter
        happens within a few cycles of the sampling frequencies does not
get the
        benefit of low jitter transfer at any stable loop filter
settings. So
        now we have knock out the too big components of the input
jitter, what's
        left ? My guess is the true Rj AND the jitter induced from the
transm
         it circuit PLL (i.e. JITTER ACCUMULATION).
        
        So when we are trying to fight the jitter transfer by dropping
the loop
        bandwidth, aren't we actually INCREASING the jitter accumulation
at the
        transmitting end and we end up needing to cut the bandwidth
downstream
        to minimize jitter transfer ? Does the solution we are
implementing
        actually creates/worsen the problem ?
        
        To every designers we see our own devil, I sure would not like
to impose
        my point of view on this issue on anyone who at least understand
my
        points above. Whether you agree with me or not. However, seeing
the
        latest FC or PCIe Gen II spec, it seems to be the group thinking
has
        already been set to minimizing the jitter transfer is more
important
        than the jitter accumulation. In fact, I am not even aware of
any jitter
        accumulation spec in FC or PCIe (please correct me if I am
wrong). The
        fact that Fc is set to something like 1667th of the bit rate
means the
        PLL is way over damped.
        
        This seems countered to my own experience of characterizing
PLL's where
        jitter accumulation almost always larger than true jitter
transfer. I
        have to qualify that with the jitter definition above. Slow
non-high
        speed input jitter transfer is what I am talking about. Dj's and
        specifically DDj input is big but not within the bandwidth of
our
        discussion here.
        
        I know there are many smart brains that is responsible to come
up with
        this 1/1667 bit rate Fc, so somewhere along my logic I must be
wrong.
        Can someone point me to why jitter accumulation is less of a
concern
        than transfer in these standard ?
        
        Chris


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