[SI-LIST] Re: HSPICE - adding jitter to ethernet serial link

Hassan, I agree with Chris and Al here.  For my money, PRBS data 
pattern is useful for simulating ISI DJ, but I think it is very 
questionable to try and use it to represent RJ.  A PRBS pattern that 
covers the run-length limit of the encoding scheme that is all that 
is necessary, and I believe useful for simulating ISI.   I don't 
think PRBS data gives us a picture of RJ at all.  If we want to use a 
synthetic noise source to look at a bounded approximation of RJ, I 
think we need to feed a pseudo-random voltage amplitude into the 
receiver slicer.

Regards,

Steve.

At 02:36 PM 2/15/2006, Chris Cheng wrote:
>If the channel is indeed linear, what's the difference between not doing =
>Rj at all and simulate your PRBS, get the minium eye opening (Dj) then =
>add a seperate Rj convoluted with impulse response ?=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Hassan O. Ali
>Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:18 PM
>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSPICE - adding jitter to ethernet serial link
>
>
>Chris,
>
>The HSPICE approach allows you to see the effect of source RJ as well as =
>both source and=20
>channel-induced DJ. I think the convolution you're referring to doesn't =
>consider source=20
>DJ.
>
>I'm thinking out loud here, but I think in simulation, if the input =
>pattern is known, it=20
>doesn't need many bits to simulate a case of worst-case jitter (or =
>eye-opening) for a=20
>particular BER requirement.=20
>
>For example, for a BER of 10E-14, the max pk-to-pk RJ is approx. 15.3 =
>times RJ(rms). To=20
>simulate the worst-case total jitter, In the PWL source you could use =
>that amount of max=20
>pk-to-pk RJ right at the bit where you expect the worst-case ISI e.g. at =
>a lone "1" that=20
>follows a long run of 0's. In other words, I think you can strategically =
>define source=20
>RJ and DJ amounts along your bit stream and cover the entire eye-pattern =
>voltage/time=20
>bounds in just a few bits.  Anyone out there has done this?
>
>Best regards.
>
>Hassan.
>
>
>
>On Feb 15, "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >=20
> > If your channel response is linear. How does a separate analysis with =
>Rj only=20
>convoluted with the impulse response of the channel different from what =
>you are doing ?=20
>How many bit do you think is need to simulate in SPICE a BERT of 10e-14 =
>or -18 ?
> > =20
> > ________________________________
> >=20
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Hassan O. Ali
> > Sent: Wed 2/15/2006 9:02 AM
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSPICE - adding jitter to ethernet serial link
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > A piece-wise linear (PWL) source implemented as below in an HSPICE =
>subcircuit may be
> > used to simulate RJ and DJ effects on the output.
> >=20
> > The total jitter (J) factors (e.g. 0.512, 0.221, etc.) in this case =
>were generated with
> > a random number generator. The bit pattern is random but is supposed =
>to mimic an 8B/10B
> > encoding where the maximum run-length (maximum number of consecutive =
>1's or 0's) is 5.
> > The pattern length was arbitrarily chosen as 160 bits.
> >=20
> > Mind you, this is just one arbitrary way of including DJ and RJ =
>effects. I'm sure more
> > elaborate ways exist.
> >=20
> > Best regards.
> >=20
> > Hassan.
> >=20
> >=20
> > ************************************************
> > * HSPICE PWL voltage source
> > * Parameter description:
> > * TR - Rise/Fall time of the PWL source
> > * UI - Unit Interval time (Bit width =3D 1/BitRate)
> > * HI - Voltage value representing bit "1"
> > * LO - Voltage value representing bit "0"
> > * JD - Peak-to-peak deterministic jitter
> > * JR - Peak-to-peak random jitter
> > ************************************************
> > .SUBCKT pwl_source node1 node2
> > +TR=3DTRval UI=3DUIval HI=3DHIval LO=3DLOval
> > +JD=3DJDval JR=3DJRval
> > .param J=3D'(JD+JR/2)'
> > vsrc node1 node2 PWL
> > + 0.0    'HI', '0.512*J+UI*1'    'HI',
> > + '0.512*J+UI*1+TR'   'LO', '0.221*J+UI*2'    'LO',
> > + '0.221*J+UI*2+TR'   'LO', '0.868*J+UI*3'    'LO',
> > + '0.868*J+UI*3+TR'   'LO', '0.358*J+UI*4'    'LO',
> > + '0.358*J+UI*4+TR'   'LO', '0.379*J+UI*5'    'LO',
> > + '0.379*J+UI*5+TR'   'HI', '-0.003*J+UI*6'    'HI',
> > + '-0.003*J+UI*6+TR'   'LO', '0.2*J+UI*7'    'LO',
> > + '0.2*J+UI*7+TR'   'LO', '0.238*J+UI*8'    'LO',
> > + '0.238*J+UI*8+TR'   'LO', '0.197*J+UI*9'    'LO',
> > + '0.197*J+UI*9+TR'   'LO', '-0.424*J+UI*10'    'LO',
> > + '-0.424*J+UI*10+TR'   'HI', '-0.608*J+UI*11'    'HI',
> > + '-0.608*J+UI*11+TR'   'HI', '-0.47*J+UI*12'    'HI',
> > + '-0.47*J+UI*12+TR'   'LO', '-0.124*J+UI*13'    'LO',
> > + '-0.124*J+UI*13+TR'   'LO', '-0.094*J+UI*14'    'LO',
> > + '-0.094*J+UI*14+TR'   'LO', '-0.657*J+UI*15'    'LO',
> > + '-0.657*J+UI*15+TR'   'HI', '0.48*J+UI*16'    'HI',
> > + '0.48*J+UI*16+TR'   'LO', '-0.052*J+UI*17'    'LO',
> > + '-0.052*J+UI*17+TR'   'LO', '0.208*J+UI*18'    'LO',
> > + '0.208*J+UI*18+TR'   'HI', '-0.15*J+UI*19'    'HI',
> > + '-0.15*J+UI*19+TR'   'HI', '-0.097*J+UI*20'    'HI',
> > + '-0.097*J+UI*20+TR'   'LO', '0.089*J+UI*21'    'LO',
> > + '0.089*J+UI*21+TR'   'LO', '-0.535*J+UI*22'    'LO',
> > + '-0.535*J+UI*22+TR'   'LO', '0.096*J+UI*23'    'LO',
> > + '0.096*J+UI*23+TR'   'LO', '-0.433*J+UI*24'    'LO',
> > + '-0.433*J+UI*24+TR'   'LO', '0.603*J+UI*25'    'LO',
> > + '0.603*J+UI*25+TR'   'LO', '-0.119*J+UI*26'    'LO',
> > + '-0.119*J+UI*26+TR'   'HI', '-0.847*J+UI*27'    'HI',
> > + '-0.847*J+UI*27+TR'   'HI', '-0.234*J+UI*28'    'HI',
> > + '-0.234*J+UI*28+TR'   'HI', '-0.056*J+UI*29'    'HI',
> > + '-0.056*J+UI*29+TR'   'LO', '-0.535*J+UI*30'    'LO',
> > + '-0.535*J+UI*30+TR'   'LO', '-0.564*J+UI*31'    'LO',
> > + '-0.564*J+UI*31+TR'   'HI', '-0.191*J+UI*32'    'HI',
> > + '-0.191*J+UI*32+TR'   'LO', '0.16*J+UI*33'    'LO',
> > + '0.16*J+UI*33+TR'   'LO', '-0.552*J+UI*34'    'LO',
> > + '-0.552*J+UI*34+TR'   'LO', '0.277*J+UI*35'    'LO',
> > + '0.277*J+UI*35+TR'   'HI', '-0.491*J+UI*36'    'HI',
> > + '-0.491*J+UI*36+TR'   'LO', '0.463*J+UI*37'    'LO',
> > + '0.463*J+UI*37+TR'   'LO', '-0.166*J+UI*38'    'LO',
> > + '-0.166*J+UI*38+TR'   'HI', '-0.592*J+UI*39'    'HI',
> > + '-0.592*J+UI*39+TR'   'HI', '0.667*J+UI*40'    'HI',
> > + '0.667*J+UI*40+TR'   'LO', '-0.296*J+UI*41'    'LO',
> > + '-0.296*J+UI*41+TR'   'LO', '-0.11*J+UI*42'    'LO',
> > + '-0.11*J+UI*42+TR'   'HI', '-0.608*J+UI*43'    'HI',
> > + '-0.608*J+UI*43+TR'   'HI', '-0.351*J+UI*44'    'HI',
> > + '-0.351*J+UI*44+TR'   'LO', '0.818*J+UI*45'    'LO',
> > + '0.818*J+UI*45+TR'   'HI', '-0.365*J+UI*46'    'HI',
> > + '-0.365*J+UI*46+TR'   'LO', '0.201*J+UI*47'    'LO',
> > + '0.201*J+UI*47+TR'   'LO', '-0.247*J+UI*48'    'LO',
> > + '-0.247*J+UI*48+TR'   'LO', '0.446*J+UI*49'    'LO',
> > + '0.446*J+UI*49+TR'   'HI', '0.329*J+UI*50'    'HI',
> > + '0.329*J+UI*50+TR'   'LO', '0.706*J+UI*51'    'LO',
> > + '0.706*J+UI*51+TR'   'HI', '-0.165*J+UI*52'    'HI',
> > + '-0.165*J+UI*52+TR'   'LO', '0.302*J+UI*53'    'LO',
> > + '0.302*J+UI*53+TR'   'LO', '0.03*J+UI*54'    'LO',
> > + '0.03*J+UI*54+TR'   'HI', '0.152*J+UI*55'    'HI',
> > + '0.152*J+UI*55+TR'   'LO', '-0.255*J+UI*56'    'LO',
> > + '-0.255*J+UI*56+TR'   'HI', '-0.237*J+UI*57'    'HI',
> > + '-0.237*J+UI*57+TR'   'LO', '0.014*J+UI*58'    'LO',
> > + '0.014*J+UI*58+TR'   'LO', '0.64*J+UI*59'    'LO',
> > + '0.64*J+UI*59+TR'   'LO', '-0.162*J+UI*60'    'LO',
> > + '-0.162*J+UI*60+TR'   'LO', '0.311*J+UI*61'    'LO',
> > + '0.311*J+UI*61+TR'   'LO', '0.33*J+UI*62'    'LO',
> > + '0.33*J+UI*62+TR'   'LO', '-0.301*J+UI*63'    'LO',
> > + '-0.301*J+UI*63+TR'   'HI', '-0.513*J+UI*64'    'HI',
> > + '-0.513*J+UI*64+TR'   'LO', '0.102*J+UI*65'    'LO',
> > + '0.102*J+UI*65+TR'   'LO', '-0.695*J+UI*66'    'LO',
> > + '-0.695*J+UI*66+TR'   'LO', '-0.308*J+UI*67'    'LO',
> > + '-0.308*J+UI*67+TR'   'LO', '-0.444*J+UI*68'    'LO',
> > + '-0.444*J+UI*68+TR'   'LO', '0.387*J+UI*69'    'LO',
> > + '0.387*J+UI*69+TR'   'LO', '-0.031*J+UI*70'    'LO',
> > + '-0.031*J+UI*70+TR'   'HI', '-0.599*J+UI*71'    'HI',
> > + '-0.599*J+UI*71+TR'   'LO', '-0.071*J+UI*72'    'LO',
> > + '-0.071*J+UI*72+TR'   'LO', '0.077*J+UI*73'    'LO',
> > + '0.077*J+UI*73+TR'   'HI', '0.663*J+UI*74'    'HI',
> > + '0.663*J+UI*74+TR'   'HI', '-0.526*J+UI*75'    'HI',
> > + '-0.526*J+UI*75+TR'   'LO', '0*J+UI*76'    'LO',
> > + '0*J+UI*76+TR'   'LO', '0.193*J+UI*77'    'LO',
> > + '0.193*J+UI*77+TR'   'LO', '0.479*J+UI*78'    'LO',
> > + '0.479*J+UI*78+TR'   'LO', '-0.055*J+UI*79'    'LO',
> > + '-0.055*J+UI*79+TR'   'HI', '0.161*J+UI*80'    'HI',
> > + '0.161*J+UI*80+TR'   'LO', '0.404*J+UI*81'    'LO',
> > + '0.404*J+UI*81+TR'   'LO', '-0.249*J+UI*82'    'LO',
> > + '-0.249*J+UI*82+TR'   'HI', '-0.255*J+UI*83'    'HI',
> > + '-0.255*J+UI*83+TR'   'LO', '-0.668*J+UI*84'    'LO',
> > + '-0.668*J+UI*84+TR'   'HI', '-0.481*J+UI*85'    'HI',
> > + '-0.481*J+UI*85+TR'   'LO', '0.553*J+UI*86'    'LO',
> > + '0.553*J+UI*86+TR'   'LO', '0.16*J+UI*87'    'LO',
> > + '0.16*J+UI*87+TR'   'HI', '0.392*J+UI*88'    'HI',
> > + '0.392*J+UI*88+TR'   'LO', '-0.056*J+UI*89'    'LO',
> > + '-0.056*J+UI*89+TR'   'LO', '0.267*J+UI*90'    'LO',
> > + '0.267*J+UI*90+TR'   'LO', '0.384*J+UI*91'    'LO',
> > + '0.384*J+UI*91+TR'   'LO', '0.79*J+UI*92'    'LO',
> > + '0.79*J+UI*92+TR'   'LO', '-0.734*J+UI*93'    'LO',
> > + '-0.734*J+UI*93+TR'   'LO', '-0.006*J+UI*94'    'LO',
> > + '-0.006*J+UI*94+TR'   'HI', '-0.01*J+UI*95'    'HI',
> > + '-0.01*J+UI*95+TR'   'HI', '-0.039*J+UI*96'    'HI',
> > + '-0.039*J+UI*96+TR'   'LO', '0.648*J+UI*97'    'LO',
> > + '0.648*J+UI*97+TR'   'HI', '0.099*J+UI*98'    'HI',
> > + '0.099*J+UI*98+TR'   'LO', '0.409*J+UI*99'    'LO',
> > + '0.409*J+UI*99+TR'   'HI', '0.808*J+UI*100'    'HI',
> > + '0.808*J+UI*100+TR'   'HI', '0.458*J+UI*101'    'HI',
> > + '0.458*J+UI*101+TR'   'LO', '0.709*J+UI*102'    'LO',
> > + '0.709*J+UI*102+TR'   'LO', '0.489*J+UI*103'    'LO',
> > + '0.489*J+UI*103+TR'   'HI', '0.309*J+UI*104'    'HI',
> > + '0.309*J+UI*104+TR'   'LO', '0.637*J+UI*105'    'LO',
> > + '0.637*J+UI*105+TR'   'LO', '0.225*J+UI*106'    'LO',
> > + '0.225*J+UI*106+TR'   'LO', '-0.052*J+UI*107'    'LO',
> > + '-0.052*J+UI*107+TR'   'HI', '-0.1*J+UI*108'    'HI',
> > + '-0.1*J+UI*108+TR'   'HI', '0.288*J+UI*109'    'HI',
> > + '0.288*J+UI*109+TR'   'LO', '-0.219*J+UI*110'    'LO',
> > + '-0.219*J+UI*110+TR'   'LO', '-0.129*J+UI*111'    'LO',
> > + '-0.129*J+UI*111+TR'   'LO', '0.035*J+UI*112'    'LO',
> > + '0.035*J+UI*112+TR'   'LO', '0.131*J+UI*113'    'LO',
> > + '0.131*J+UI*113+TR'   'HI', '-0.23*J+UI*114'    'HI',
> > + '-0.23*J+UI*114+TR'   'LO', '0.24*J+UI*115'    'LO',
> > + '0.24*J+UI*115+TR'   'LO', '0.684*J+UI*116'    'LO',
> > + '0.684*J+UI*116+TR'   'LO', '0.027*J+UI*117'    'LO',
> > + '0.027*J+UI*117+TR'   'HI', '0.351*J+UI*118'    'HI',
> > + '0.351*J+UI*118+TR'   'LO', '-0.562*J+UI*119'    'LO',
> > + '-0.562*J+UI*119+TR'   'LO', '0.831*J+UI*120'    'LO',
> > + '0.831*J+UI*120+TR'   'LO', '-0.524*J+UI*121'    'LO',
> > + '-0.524*J+UI*121+TR'   'HI', '-0.041*J+UI*122'    'HI',
> > + '-0.041*J+UI*122+TR'   'HI', '0.675*J+UI*123'    'HI',
> > + '0.675*J+UI*123+TR'   'HI', '-0.035*J+UI*124'    'HI',
> > + '-0.035*J+UI*124+TR'   'HI', '0.083*J+UI*125'    'HI',
> > + '0.083*J+UI*125+TR'   'LO', '-0.247*J+UI*126'    'LO',
> > + '-0.247*J+UI*126+TR'   'HI', '-0.372*J+UI*127'    'HI',
> > + '-0.372*J+UI*127+TR'   'LO', '-0.44*J+UI*128'    'LO',
> > + '-0.44*J+UI*128+TR'   'HI', '-0.861*J+UI*129'    'HI',
> > + '-0.861*J+UI*129+TR'   'LO', '0.162*J+UI*130'    'LO',
> > + '0.162*J+UI*130+TR'   'HI', '-0.228*J+UI*131'    'HI',
> > + '-0.228*J+UI*131+TR'   'HI', '0.606*J+UI*132'    'HI',
> > + '0.606*J+UI*132+TR'   'HI', '-0.002*J+UI*133'    'HI',
> > + '-0.002*J+UI*133+TR'   'LO', '0.385*J+UI*134'    'LO',
> > + '0.385*J+UI*134+TR'   'HI', '0.012*J+UI*135'    'HI',
> > + '0.012*J+UI*135+TR'   'LO', '0.14*J+UI*136'    'LO',
> > + '0.14*J+UI*136+TR'   'LO', '-0.286*J+UI*137'    'LO',
> > + '-0.286*J+UI*137+TR'   'HI', '-0.124*J+UI*138'    'HI',
> > + '-0.124*J+UI*138+TR'   'HI', '0.132*J+UI*139'    'HI',
> > + '0.132*J+UI*139+TR'   'HI', '0.65*J+UI*140'    'HI',
> > + '0.65*J+UI*140+TR'   'LO', '0.422*J+UI*141'    'LO',
> > + '0.422*J+UI*141+TR'   'HI', '-0.173*J+UI*142'    'HI',
> > + '-0.173*J+UI*142+TR'   'HI', '-0.701*J+UI*143'    'HI',
> > + '-0.701*J+UI*143+TR'   'HI', '0.674*J+UI*144'    'HI',
> > + '0.674*J+UI*144+TR'   'LO', '-0.063*J+UI*145'    'LO',
> > + '-0.063*J+UI*145+TR'   'LO', '0.697*J+UI*146'    'LO',
> > + '0.697*J+UI*146+TR'   'HI', '-0.464*J+UI*147'    'HI',
> > + '-0.464*J+UI*147+TR'   'HI', '0.241*J+UI*148'    'HI',
> > + '0.241*J+UI*148+TR'   'LO', '0.158*J+UI*149'    'LO',
> > + '0.158*J+UI*149+TR'   'HI', '0.725*J+UI*150'    'HI',
> > + '0.725*J+UI*150+TR'   'LO', '-0.715*J+UI*151'    'LO',
> > + '-0.715*J+UI*151+TR'   'HI', '0.379*J+UI*152'    'HI',
> > + '0.379*J+UI*152+TR'   'HI', '-0.341*J+UI*153'    'HI',
> > + '-0.341*J+UI*153+TR'   'LO', '0.387*J+UI*154'    'LO',
> > + '0.387*J+UI*154+TR'   'HI', '-0.158*J+UI*155'    'HI',
> > + '-0.158*J+UI*155+TR'   'LO', '0.637*J+UI*156'    'LO',
> > + '0.637*J+UI*156+TR'   'LO', '-0.883*J+UI*157'    'LO',
> > + '-0.883*J+UI*157+TR'   'LO', '-0.083*J+UI*158'    'LO',
> > + '-0.083*J+UI*158+TR'   'HI', '-0.087*J+UI*159'    'HI',
> > + '-0.087*J+UI*159+TR'   'HI', '0.573*J+UI*160'    'HI',
> > .ends
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Feb 15, "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > May be its just me but Rj only makes sense when you are trying to =
>extract a BERT=20
>curve
> > which seems to be a MATLAB job.
> > > If you have your Tx Rj, channel model and jitter transfer of your =
>CDR, the rest of=20
>the
> > work is straight forward.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 10:40 AM 2/7/2006 -0800, Ali Burney wrote:
> > > >=20
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I am running gigabit Ethernet link simulation using HSPICE and =
>have a=3D20
> > > >> question on adding jitter to the transmitted data. Is there any =
>way to=3D20
> > > >> add Gaussian jitter to the transmitted data?  I know that tools =
>such as
> > > >>  =20
> > > >
> > > >=20
> > > >> Hyperlynx allow you to add transmit jitter.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks and best regards,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> A Burney
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> >=20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >=20
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > <a =
>href=3D'http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list'>http://www.freelists.or=
>g/webpage/si-
>list</a>
> >=20
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >=20
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> >                 <a =
>href=3D'http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ'>http://si-
>list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ</a>
> >=20
> > List technical documents are available at:
> >                 <a =
>href=3D'http://www.si-list.org'>http://www.si-list.org</a>
> >=20
> > List archives are viewable at:   =20
> >                 <a href=3D'http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-
>list'>http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list</a>
> > or at our remote archives:
> >                 <a href=3D'http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-
>list/messages'>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages</a>
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >                 <a =
>href=3D'http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu'>http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu</a>
> > =20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >=20
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > <a =
>href=3D'http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list'>http://www.freelists.or=
>g/webpage/si-
>list</a>
> >=20
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >=20
> > List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> >                 <a =
>href=3D'http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ'>http://si-
>list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ</a>
> >=20
> > List technical documents are available at:
> >                 <a =
>href=3D'http://www.si-list.org'>http://www.si-list.org</a>
> >=20
> > List archives are viewable at:    =20
> >               <a href=3D'http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-
>list'>http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list</a>
> > or at our remote archives:
> >               <a href=3D'http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-
>list/messages'>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages</a>
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >               <a 
> href=3D'http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu'>http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu</a>
> >  =20
> >=20
> >=20
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from si-list:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
>For help:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
>List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.org
>
>List archives are viewable at:    =20
>                 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>or at our remote archives:
>                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>  =20
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from si-list:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
>For help:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
>List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.org
>
>List archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>or at our remote archives:
>                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>

------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field

List FAQ wiki page is located at:
                http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ

List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.org

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

Other related posts: