[SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
- From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <arpad.muranyi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Si-List@Freelists. Org" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:53:28 -0800
I was holding off, but now I feel I have to chip in with my
two pennies...
I became an EE late in my life, after having spent a lot of
years in a completely different field. However, during those
years I did a lot in electronics as a hobbyist educating myself
as my projects needed it. When I went to school getting my formal
engineering education, many things were very familiar to me already
because I have seen it in real life. When I started to learn about
the theoretical background, it made a lot of sense to me because I
said, "aha, that's why this or that did such and such". And, of
course, I knew how to make a good and clean solder joint, because
I have had soldering iron since I was ... ? I can't even remember ...
perhaps 10 years old or even younger (I have to ask my parents).
Anyway, on the other hand, I have a good friend, colleague, who
graduated from the same school a year before me. His GPA was
better than mine very close to 4.0. He probably never built
anything electronic before entering school. Even there, the lab
exercises were mostly meaningless to him. During our work related
discussions I remind him some times about certain things we learnt
in school from the same teacher (only a year apart), and he usually
says "oh really, I never saw the connection"... Also, I had to teach
him during his first week at work how to make a clean solder joint
(using plenty of flux to get the oxide and dirt off, warm up the
material to allow the solder to flow, etc... and not just pile a
bunch of solder on top of the already joined but cold parts).
The point of my story is that most kids in school get a bunch of theory,
and they have no clue for what hit them. They memorize equations,
solutions, etc... and get good grades. But when it comes to applying
their knowledge, they are lost. Not even the labs that go hand in hand
with many of the classes are enough.
So, with regards to the original posting, I tend to favor heavy duty
theory a bit later in the education, and not necessarily at the beginning.
(And I am deliberately using vague words here, because I don't know where
to draw the lines exactly). It is easier (at least for me) to learn the
complicated theory in a meaningful way than just memorize how to solve
abstract, and otherwise meaningless differential equations (Maxwell's
included).
Unfortunately I find it way too often that our highly educated professors
tend to detach themselves from practical life. I have a lot of respect to
them, and I envy them for their knowledge, but we can't loose sight of life.
Here is a favorite story that happened to me once.
When my mind was bombarded with Newton's 2nd law (F=m*a) I noticed something
with my stick shift car that puzzled me for a long time. You can try it too
on a level street.
Starting in 1st gear, accelerate as fast as you can (without blowing up your
engine) to the speed when you would normally switch to the 2nd gear. Let go
your gas pedal as normal but keep your clutch down. Look at your
speedometer
at that moment (but only if there is nothing else on the street in front of
you). Does your speedometer stop at the speed it was showing at the moment
you
pressed the clutch down, or does it continue to go up, showing acceleration?
Well, mine did (and still does) continue and I was wondering what was wrong
with Newton or my car. If the force becomes zero at the moment the clutch
separates the engine from the wheels and the mass of the car doesn't change,
what causes the acceleration? The answer I got from my Dynamics teacher
with
a Ph. D. to this was that the engine needs time to slow down from the high
revolutions due to the rotational inertia so the force doesn't go to zero
immediately!!! With a clutch that physically separates the engine's
crankshaft from the wheels?!? I have figured out the answer since, but
I came up with it on my own, my mechanical engineer friend didn't know it
either, he just gave me some good clues...
Oh, by the way, when we hire, we like to find people who can think and solve
problems, not just mechanically throw out predetermined answers, hoping
that it will solve the issues... So yes, theory is important, but not by
itself for its own sake.
Arpad Muranyi
Intel Corporation
===========================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Crowell [mailto:brad.crowell@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:31 AM
To: Si-List@Freelists. Org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
From my experience in university education, these institutions do a good job
of providing information to undergraduate students. Whether the right
information is being passed on is another question for debate, but I would
have to agree with all those that endorse the idea of addressing the basic
principles in university education. With these basics a graduating student
should be able to learn the practical issues of SI, EMC, and digital and
analog design. But why are we waiting for graduation day to begin the
process of connecting all those bits and pieces of information to solve real
world problems. I think that where the universities are lacking is in the
teaching of problem solving and creative thinking. Students graduate with
lots of knowledge but without the most important piece of the puzzle; how to
apply that knowledge.
Brad Crowell
AMIRIX Systems
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of John Howard
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:57 PM
> To: francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx
> Cc: 'freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx'; sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Si-List@Freelists. Org
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
>
>
> Gentlemen,
> I've thoroughly enjoyed this debate on the demise of EE education and
> your thoughts on improving it. I would like to let you all know of the
> activity
> by the IEEE EMC Society to at least do something about the paucity of EMC
> education. I chair a committee under the Education arm of the EMCS which
> offers a modest grant to any qualified University (worldwide) to encourage
> the initial offering of a EMC class to undergraduate and/or graduate
> students.
> As a long time EMC consultant I regularly teach classes on EMC and I very
> much agree with the view that today's engineers are poorly gifted
> in some EE
> fundamentals. This has prompted me to carry the banner in a small way for
> the EMCS. I also agree with the earlier comment about the
> vanishing numbers
> of qualified Fields and Waves professors. They are becoming
> evanescent :-)
> Come back to me if anyone is further interested in my University
> Grant deal.
> Best Regards
> John Howard
> EMC Consultant
>
> Kai, Francis wrote:
>
> >Jim,
> >
> > Thank you. This is exactly what I want to say:
> >"rule of thumb" without reasoning will hurt instead
> >of help students. My undergraduate electronics teacher
> >did not teach me "Miller capacitance" well in Jacob Millman's
> >red textbook.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Francis Kai
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jim Freeman [mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:05 PM
> >To: sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Cc: Si-List@Freelists. Org
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Sainath,
> > The fact that it presupposes some rules of thumb that are
> simply derived
> >and tries to minimize the complexity of VLSI design. I know many
> engineers
> >who
> >have cited and used the rules of thumb faithfully and had to say whoops!!
> >later
> >on. The vintage engineers usually understand the underlying
> concepts such as
> >miller capacitance, device ratios and layout that prevent
> obvious mistakes.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Jim Freeman
> >
> >Sainath Nimmagadda wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Jim,
> >>
> >>You've made some statement about Carver & Mead approach. What
> about their
> >>approach that makes you so unhappy?
> >>
> >>Sainath
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman
> >>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:10 PM
> >>To: Kai, Francis
> >>Cc: Howard Johnson; ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> >>owsley@xxxxxxxxx
> >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
> >>
> >>Hi Francis,
> >> I think you missed the point. I am saying that basic
> understanding of
> >>how
> >>an electron performs and how a magnetic field is developed are being
> >>
> >taught
> >
> >>insufficiently. This may be happening for several reasons. A basic
> >>
> >distaste
> >
> >>for
> >>the material by the students and the faculty, lack of
> understanding about
> >>these
> >>concepts by the people who are supposed to teach them, lack of
> ability to
> >>communicate the concepts by those who are supposed to teach them, or a
> >>feeling
> >>that they are somehow irrelavent in the modern computing age of today.
> >> As for the VLSI courses that are taught today in undergraduate
> >>
> >studies,
> >
> >>most of them rely on a Carver & Mead approach that to my mind
> is not only
> >>useless but damaging to understanding of VLSI.
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>Jim Freeman
> >>
> >>"Kai, Francis" wrote:
> >>
> >>>Dear SI gurus:
> >>>
> >>> Although all of you are great experts on SI and EMI, please allow
> >>>
> >me
> >
> >>>to say one word or two since I had been a student and an Assistant
> >>>Professor in Electrical and Computer Engineering.
> >>>
> >>> I think the undergraduate education should be based on
> fundamentals
> >>>and the graduate education should be focused on a special field. I do
> >>>
> >not
> >
> >>>think we need to teach "signal integrity" or "EMI" in undergraduate
> >>>
> >>studies.
> >>
> >>>Basic circuit theory, electronics (digital and analog circuit design),
> >>>
> >>solid
> >>
> >>>state devices, electromagnetics and electromagnetic waves theory, and
> >>>
> >VLSI
> >
> >>>circuit design are the key courses. If the instructor (professor or
> >>>lecturer)
> >>>can pass these concepts clearly to the students in the above fields,
> >>>
> >then
> >
> >>we
> >>
> >>>will have good engineers. You don't need to know how to
> calculate skews,
> >>>crosstalks, PEECs, and other SI concepts in undergraduate studies
> >>>
> >because
> >
> >>>if you have excellent background in circuit theory, EM&EMW, you can
> >>>
> >easily
> >
> >>>pick up these concepts.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Francis Kai
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Jim Freeman [mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:08 AM
> >>>To: Howard Johnson
> >>>Cc: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; owsley@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
> >>>
> >>>Dear Howard,
> >>> The situation at Rice is not unlike the situation at Purdue while I
> >>>was attending. When I started as a freshman engineering student, the
> >>>requirement for graduation was for 141 semester hours of education.
> >>>Before I could graduate, the pressure of open universities, drop in
> >>>engineering education( it was deemed by most undergraduates as
> too hard.
> >>>Also, the layoffs in 1969 due to the implosion of the
> aerospace industry
> >>>and the visual in the newspaper of a Phd. in Aeronautical engineering
> >>>sweeping the floor of a gas station as a part-time attendant as a
> >>>reminder of the corporate rewards for such hard work), and the general
> >>>attitude in the U.S. that we needed the war on poverty and the vietnam
> >>>war at the same time caused Purdue to streamline the education and
> >>>reduce the number of hours required to 120 hours. This was done at the
> >>>expense of the engineering courses and not the required
> humanities. I am
> >>>all for both(I amassed 157 semester hours in the 8 semesters and a
> >>>summer session that I attended) but to weaken the programs was probably
> >>>a mistake.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks
> >>>Jim Freeman
> >>>
> >>>Howard Johnson wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Dear Jim Freeman,
> >>>>
> >>>>I agree with you whole-heartedly that EE education is being shunted
> >>>>aside
> >>>>in favor of computer science at many universities. It's unfortunately,
> >>>>really, that
> >>>>educators have to make such decisions, but understandable of course.
> >>>>Out of
> >>>>the torrent of papers, conferences, and new information available each
> >>>>year they
> >>>>have to choose what is worthy of presentation to new students, and
> >>>>what has become
> >>>>"passe" or is available otherwise as "on-the-job" training. For
> >>>>example, at my
> >>>>alma matter Rice University I've heard rumors that the EE curriculum
> >>>>may soon be
> >>>>dropped or scaled back. From my perspective, eliminating subjects like
> >>>>transmission
> >>>>lines, electromagnetic fields, (low voltage) power distribution and
> >>>>interconnect
> >>>>modeling would be a mistake, but then I don't get to make such
> >>>>decisions (and I'm
> >>>>glad I don't have to).
> >>>>
> >>>>Clayton Paul has done a lot to popularize the teaching of EMC
> >>>>in colleges and universities with his textbook "Introduction to
> >>>>Electromagnetic
> >>>>Compatibility" and his persistent efforts within the IEEE to discuss
> >>>>EE
> >>>>curriculum. At this point I'm wondering who will step forward to do
> >>>>the same job
> >>>>for the field of signal integrity.
> >>>>
> >>>>Best regards,
> >>>>Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
> >>>>tel 509-997-0505, howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>http:\\signalintegrity.com -- High-Speed Digital Design articles,
> >>>>books, tools, and seminars
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman
> >>>>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:17 PM
> >>>>To: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; owsley@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Hi All,
> >>>> Howard's article compares vintage with EMC. As one of the vintage
> >>>>engineers,
> >>>>I think the problem is really in the conversion from an emphasis on
> >>>>the
> >>>>ELECTRICAL in E.E. to an emphasis on computers in electrical
> >>>>engineering. Most
> >>>>engineers who graduate today think of electrons as an anachronism, if
> >>>>they think
> >>>>of them at all.
> >>>> As us vintage engineers remember, we were educated when the
> >>>>transition was
> >>>>occurring from motors, relays and tubes to a solid-state emphasis. We
> >>>>have
> >>>>performed our engineering job so well that those who practice
> >>>>engineering today
> >>>>don't worry about solid-state. it just works. We are generally in the
> >>>>same boat
> >>>>with today's engineers in regard to motor theory because it was being
> >>>>de-emphasized in our education.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks
> >>>>Jim Freeman
> >>>>
> >>>>Mike Ventham wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Greetings All,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I think Howard has now recognized vintage as being related to bald.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>See "NOT ALL EMC ENGINEERS ARE BALD"
> >>>>>Don't believe every myth you hear.
> >>>>>http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194
> >>>>>
> >>>>>At 02:28 19/06/01, Bill Owsley wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>At 11:45 PM 06/18/2001 +0100, Mike Ventham wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The same seems to go for EMC engineers. I have met many who are
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>'old'
> >>>>
> >>>>>>the politically correct now use 'vintage' instead of 'old' - like
> >>>>>>
> >>>>in wine...
> >>>>
> >>>>>>;>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>analog engineers!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>At 23:19 18/06/01, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>i kinda get the feeling that its the other way around... a
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>true SI
> >>>>
> >>>>>>guy is a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>microwave guy who's turned digital. ;-) all the digital guys
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>that
> >>>>
> >>>>>>pick up
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>on a little microwave are just SI wannabe's.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>miker
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>p.s. i'm a digital guy and the above is said tongue-in-cheek.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>(snipped for bandwidth)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>----------------------------
> >>>>>>Bill Owsley, owsley@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>919) 392-8341
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Compliance Engineer
> >>>>>>Cisco Systems
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mike
> >>>>>________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>| Mike Ventham - Vice-President Engineering, |
> >>>>>| Quantic EMC Inc. Headquarters |
> >>>>>| Croft House, Chilcompton, 191 Lombard Ave., Winnipeg,|
> >>>>>| Somerset, UK, BA3 4JA Manitoba, Canada R3B 0X1 |
> >>>>>| Tel: 44 (0)1761 232191 Tel: (204) 942 4000 |
> >>>>>| Fax: 44 (0)7974 141685 Fax: (204) 957 1158 |
> >>>>>| Mobile: 44 (0)7971 553260 |
> >>>>>| Email: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.quantic-emc.com |
> >>>>>
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