Dear SI gurus: Please allow me to write one more message and I promise I will keep quiet for a while. Thank you for your patience. I hope John Howard can ask our government to get more funding in Signal Integrity, Electronic Packaging, EMI/EMC and high-speed interconnect areas. I also hope that famous gurus can charge less to encourage Engineering Professors and graduate students to attend their seminars. When I was a student in college, I thought I wouldn't be an engineer designing antennas or in communication field. Therefore, I focussed my study on semiconductor device physics and I eventually got a Ph.D. in this area. Interestingly, I worked in at least two semiconductor companies and I was not doing semiconductor device research or "processing". Nowadays people are working on die-level design rules (and EMI rules) because devices are getting smaller and smaller and distributed effects show up. Die-level, package-level, and board-level SI's and EMC/EMI are all important in future systems. Modern semiconductor device physicists also need to know SI and EMI/EMC in great detail in order to do a good design. I hope the "rich and powerful" can tell our government to support more research studies in the above areas. Regards, Francis Kai -----Original Message----- From: John Howard [mailto:jhoward@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:57 PM To: francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx Cc: 'freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx'; sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Si-List@Freelists. Org Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!! Gentlemen, I've thoroughly enjoyed this debate on the demise of EE education and your thoughts on improving it. I would like to let you all know of the activity by the IEEE EMC Society to at least do something about the paucity of EMC education. I chair a committee under the Education arm of the EMCS which offers a modest grant to any qualified University (worldwide) to encourage the initial offering of a EMC class to undergraduate and/or graduate students. As a long time EMC consultant I regularly teach classes on EMC and I very much agree with the view that today's engineers are poorly gifted in some EE fundamentals. This has prompted me to carry the banner in a small way for the EMCS. I also agree with the earlier comment about the vanishing numbers of qualified Fields and Waves professors. They are becoming evanescent :-) Come back to me if anyone is further interested in my University Grant deal. Best Regards John Howard EMC Consultant Kai, Francis wrote: Jim, Thank you. This is exactly what I want to say: "rule of thumb" without reasoning will hurt instead of help students. My undergraduate electronics teacher did not teach me "Miller capacitance" well in Jacob Millman's red textbook. Best regards, Francis Kai -----Original Message----- From: Jim Freeman [ mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx> ] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:05 PM To: sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: Si-List@Freelists. Org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!! Hi Sainath, The fact that it presupposes some rules of thumb that are simply derived and tries to minimize the complexity of VLSI design. I know many engineers who have cited and used the rules of thumb faithfully and had to say whoops!! la ter on. The vintage engineers usually understand the underlying concepts such as miller capacitance, device ratios and layout that prevent obvious mistakes. Thanks Jim Freeman Sainath Nimmagadda wrote: Hi Jim, You've made some statement about Carver & Mead approach. What about their approach that makes you so unhappy? Sainath -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:10 PM To: Kai, Francis Cc: Howard Johnson; ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!! Hi Francis, I think you missed the point. I am saying that ba sic understanding of how an electron performs and how a magnetic field is developed are being taught insufficiently. This may be happening for several reasons. A basic distaste for the material by the students and the faculty, lack of understanding about these concepts by the people who are supposed to teach them, lack of ability to communicate the concepts by those who are supposed to teach them, or a feeling that they are somehow irrelavent in the modern computing age of today. As for the VLSI courses that are taught today in undergraduate studies, most of them rely on a Carver & Mead approach that to my mind is not only useless but damaging to understanding of VLSI. Thanks Jim Freeman "Kai, Francis" wrote: Dear SI gurus: Although all of you are great experts on SI and EMI, please allow me to say one word or two since I had been a student and an Assistant Professor in Electrical and Computer Engineering. I think the undergraduate education should be based on fundamentals and the graduate education should be focused on a special field. I do not think we need to teach "signal integrity" or "EMI" in undergraduate studies. Basic circuit theory, electronics (digital and analog circuit design), solid state devices, electromagnetics and electromagnetic waves theory, and VLSI circuit design are the key courses. If the instructor (professor or lecturer) can pass these concepts clearly to the students in the above fields, then we will have good engineers. You don't need to know how to calculate skews, crosstalks, PEECs, and other SI concepts in undergraduate studies because if you have excellent background in circuit theory, EM&EMW, you can easily pick up these concepts. Regards, Francis Kai -----Original Message----- From: Jim Freeman [ mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx> ] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: Howard Johnson Cc: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!! Dear Howard, The situation at Rice is not unlike the situation at Purdue while I was attending. When I started as a freshman engineering student, the requirement for graduation was for 141 semester hours of education. Before I could graduate, the pressure o f open universities, drop in engineering education( it was deemed by most undergraduates as too hard. Also, the layoffs in 1969 due to the implosion of the aerospace industry and the visual in the newspaper of a Phd. in Aeronautical engineering sweeping the floor of a gas station as a part-time attendant as a reminder of the corporate rewards for such hard work), and the general attitude in the U.S. that we needed the war on poverty and the vietnam war at the same time caused Purdue to streamline the education and reduce the number of hours required to 120 hours. This was done at the expense of the engineering courses and not the required humanities. I am all for both(I amassed 157 semester hours in the 8 semesters and a summer session that I attended) but to weaken the programs was probably a mistake. Thanks Jim Freeman Howard Johnson wrote: Dear Jim Freeman, I agree with you whole-heartedly that EE education is being shunted aside in favor of computer science at many universities. It's unfortunately, really, that educators have to make such decisions, but understandable of course. Out of the torrent of papers, conferences, and new information available each year they have to choose what is worthy of presentation to new students, and what has become "passe" or is available otherwise as "on-the-job" training. For example, at my alma matter Rice University I've heard rumors that the EE curriculum may soon be dropped or scaled back. From my perspective, eliminating subjects like transmission lines, electromagnetic fields, (low voltage) power distribution and interconnect modeling would be a mistake, but then I don't get to make such decisions (and I'm glad I don't have to). Clayton Paul h as done a lot to popularize the teaching of EMC in colleges and universities with his textbook "Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility" and his persistent efforts within the IEEE to discuss EE curriculum. At this point I'm wondering who will step forward to do the same job for the field of signal integrity. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., tel 509-997-0505, howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> http:\\signalintegrity.com <http:\\signalintegrity.com> -- High-Speed Digital Design articles, books, tools, and seminars -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:17 PM To: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!! Hi All, Howard's article compares vintage with EMC. As one of the vintage engineers, I think the problem is really in the conversion from an emphasis on the ELECTRICAL in E.E. to an emphasis on computers in electrical engineering. Most engineers who graduate today think of electrons as an anachronism, if they think of them at all. As us vintage engineers remember, we were educated when the transition was occurring from motors, relays and tubes to a solid-state emphasis. We have performed our engineerin g job so well that those who practice engineering today don't worry about solid-state. it just works. We are generally in the same boat with today's engineers in regard to motor theory because it was being de-emphasized in our education. Thanks Jim Freeman Mike Ventham wrote: Greetings All, I think Howard has now recognized vintage as being related to bald. See "NOT ALL EMC ENGINEERS ARE BALD" Don't believe every myth you hear. http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194 <http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194> At 02:28 19/06/01, Bill Owsley wrote: At 11:45 PM 06/18/2001 +0100, Mike Ventham wrote: The same seems to go for EMC engineers. I have met many who are 'old' the politically correct now use 'vintage' instead of 'old' - like in wine... ;> analog engineers! At 23:19 18/06/01, you wrote: i kinda get the feeling that its the other way around... a true SI guy is a microwave guy who's turned digital. ;-) all the digital guys that pick up on a little microwave are just SI wannabe's. miker p.s. i'm a digital guy and the above is said tongue-in-cheek. (snipped for bandwidth) ---------------------------- Bill Owsley, owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> 919) 392-8341 Compliance Engineer Cisco Systems Regards Mike ________________________________________________________________ | Mike Ventham - Vice-President Engineering, | | Quantic EMC Inc. 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