[SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!

  • From: "Kai, Francis" <francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "'John Howard'" <jhoward@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kai, Francis" <francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:24:31 -0800

Dear SI gurus:
 
      Please allow me to write one more message and I promise I will keep
quiet for a while. Thank 
you for your patience.
 
      I hope John Howard can ask our government to get more funding in
Signal Integrity, Electronic
Packaging, EMI/EMC and high-speed interconnect areas. I also hope that
famous gurus can charge
less to encourage Engineering Professors and graduate students to attend
their seminars. 
 
     When I was a student in college, I thought I wouldn't be an engineer
designing antennas or
in communication field. Therefore, I focussed my study on semiconductor
device physics and I 
eventually got a Ph.D. in this area.
 
     Interestingly, I worked in at least two semiconductor companies and I
was not doing semiconductor
device research or "processing". Nowadays people are working on die-level
design rules (and EMI rules)
because devices are getting smaller and smaller and distributed effects show
up. Die-level, package-level,
and board-level SI's and EMC/EMI are all important in future systems. Modern
semiconductor device 
physicists also need to know SI and EMI/EMC in great detail in order to do a
good design.
 
     I hope the "rich and powerful" can tell our government to support more
research studies in the above areas.
 
Regards,
 
Francis Kai
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Howard [mailto:jhoward@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:57 PM
To: francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx'; sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Si-List@Freelists. Org
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!


Gentlemen,
     I've thoroughly enjoyed this debate on the demise of EE education and 
your thoughts on improving it.  I would like to let you all know of the
activity
by the IEEE EMC Society to at least do something about the paucity of EMC
education.  I chair a committee under the Education arm of the EMCS which
offers a modest grant to any qualified University (worldwide) to encourage
the initial offering of a EMC class to undergraduate and/or graduate
students.
As a long time EMC consultant I regularly teach classes on EMC and I very
much agree with the view that today's engineers are poorly gifted in some EE
fundamentals.  This has prompted me to carry the banner in a small way for
the EMCS.  I also agree with the earlier comment about the vanishing numbers
of qualified Fields and Waves professors.  They are becoming evanescent :-)
Come back to me if anyone is further interested in my University Grant deal.
Best Regards
John Howard
EMC Consultant

Kai, Francis wrote:


Jim,

     Thank you. This is exactly what I want to say:
"rule of thumb" without reasoning will hurt instead 
of help students. My undergraduate electronics teacher
did not teach me "Miller capacitance" well in Jacob Millman's
red textbook.

Best regards,

Francis Kai

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Freeman [ mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx>
]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:05 PM
To:  sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Cc: Si-List@Freelists. Org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!



Hi Sainath,
    The fact that it presupposes some rules of thumb that are simply derived
and tries to minimize the complexity of VLSI design. I know many engineers
who
have cited and used the rules of thumb faithfully and had to say whoops!!
la

ter
on. The vintage engineers usually understand the underlying concepts such as
miller capacitance, device ratios and layout that prevent obvious mistakes.

Thanks
Jim Freeman

Sainath Nimmagadda wrote:


Hi Jim,

You've made some statement about Carver & Mead approach. What about their
approach that makes you so unhappy?

Sainath

-----Original Message-----
From:  si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
[ mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:10 PM
To: Kai, Francis
Cc: Howard Johnson;  ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;  si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!

Hi Francis,
    I think you missed the point. I am saying that ba

sic understanding of
how
an electron performs and how a magnetic field is developed are being

taught

insufficiently. This may be happening for several reasons. A basic

distaste

for
the material by the students and the faculty, lack of understanding about
these
concepts by the people who are supposed to teach them, lack of ability to
communicate the concepts by those who are supposed to teach them, or a
feeling
that they are somehow irrelavent in the modern computing age of today.
    As for the VLSI courses that are taught today in undergraduate

studies,

most of them rely on  a Carver & Mead approach that to my mind is not only
useless but damaging to understanding of VLSI.

Thanks
Jim Freeman

"Kai, Francis" wrote:


Dear SI gurus:

     Although all of you are great experts on SI and EMI, please allow

me

to say one word or two since I had been a student and an Assistant
Professor in Electrical and Computer Engineering.

     I think the undergraduate education should be based on fundamentals
and the graduate education should be focused on a special field. I do

not

think we need to teach "signal integrity" or "EMI" in undergraduate

studies.

Basic circuit theory, electronics (digital and analog circuit design),

solid

state devices, electromagnetics and electromagnetic waves theory, and

VLSI

circuit design are the key courses. If the instructor (professor or
lecturer)
can pass these concepts clearly to the students in the above fields,

then

we

will have good engineers. You don't need to know how to calculate skews,
crosstalks, PEECs, and other SI concepts in undergraduate studies

because

if you have excellent background in circuit theory, EM&EMW, you can

easily

pick up these concepts.

Regards,

Francis Kai



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Freeman [ mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx>
]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:08 AM
To: Howard Johnson
Cc:  ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;  owsley@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!

Dear Howard,
    The situation at Rice is not unlike the situation at Purdue while I
was attending. When I started as a freshman engineering student, the
requirement for graduation was for 141 semester hours of education.
Before I could graduate, the pressure o

f open universities, drop in
engineering education( it was deemed by most undergraduates as too hard.
Also, the layoffs in 1969 due to the implosion of the aerospace industry
and the visual in the newspaper of a Phd. in Aeronautical engineering
sweeping the floor of a gas station as a part-time attendant as a
reminder of the corporate rewards for such hard work), and the general
attitude in the U.S. that we needed the war on poverty and the vietnam
war at the same time caused Purdue to streamline the education and
reduce the number of hours required to 120 hours. This  was done at the
expense of the engineering courses and not the required humanities. I am
all for both(I amassed 157 semester hours in the 8 semesters and a
summer session that I attended) but to weaken the programs was probably
a mistake.

Thanks
Jim Freeman

Howard Johnson wrote:


Dear Jim Freeman,

I agree with you whole-heartedly that EE education is being shunted
aside
in favor of computer science at many universities. It's unfortunately,
really, that
educators have to make such decisions, but understandable of course.
Out of
the torrent of papers, conferences, and new information available each
year they
have to choose what is worthy of presentation to new students, and
what has become
"passe" or is available otherwise as "on-the-job" training. For
example, at my
alma matter Rice University I've heard rumors that the EE curriculum
may soon be
dropped or scaled back. From my perspective, eliminating subjects like
transmission
lines, electromagnetic fields, (low voltage) power distribution and
interconnect
modeling would be a mistake, but then I don't get to make such
decisions (and I'm
glad I don't have to).

Clayton Paul h

as done a lot to popularize the teaching of EMC
in colleges and universities with his textbook "Introduction to
Electromagnetic
Compatibility" and his persistent efforts within the IEEE to discuss
EE
curriculum. At this point I'm wondering who will step forward to do
the same job
for the field of signal integrity.

Best regards,
Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
tel 509-997-0505,   howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
http:\\signalintegrity.com <http:\\signalintegrity.com>   -- High-Speed
Digital Design articles,
books, tools, and seminars

-----Original Message-----
From:  si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
[ mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
]On Behalf

 Of Jim Freeman
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:17 PM
To:  ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Cc:  si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!


Hi All,
    Howard's article compares vintage with EMC. As one of the vintage
engineers,
I think the problem is really in the conversion from an emphasis on
the
ELECTRICAL in E.E. to an emphasis on computers in electrical
engineering. Most
engineers who graduate today think of electrons as an anachronism, if
they think
of them at all.
    As us vintage engineers remember, we were educated when the
transition was
occurring from motors, relays and tubes to a solid-state emphasis. We
have
performed our engineerin

g job so well that those who practice
engineering today
don't worry about solid-state. it just works. We are generally in the
same boat
with today's engineers in regard to motor theory because it was being
de-emphasized in our education.

Thanks
Jim Freeman

Mike Ventham wrote:


Greetings All,

I think Howard has now recognized vintage as being related to bald.

See "NOT ALL EMC ENGINEERS ARE BALD"
Don't believe every myth you hear.
http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194
<http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194> 

At 02:28 19/06/01, Bill Owsley wrote:


At 11:45 PM 06/18/2001 +0100, Mike Ventham wrote:



The same seems to go for EMC engineers. I have met many who are

'old'

the politically correct now use 'vintage' instead of 'old'  - like

in wine...

;>


analog engineers!

At 23:19 18/06/01, you wrote:


i kinda get the feeling that its the other way around...  a

true SI

guy is a

microwave guy who's turned digital.  ;-)  all the digital guys

that

pick up

on a little microwave are just SI wannabe's.

miker

p.s.  i'm a digital guy and the above is said tongue-in-cheek.

(snipped for bandwidth)

----------------------------
Bill Owsley,    owsley@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:owsley@xxxxxxxxx> 
919) 392-8341

Compliance Engineer
Cisco Systems


Regards

Mike
________________________________________________________________
| Mike Ventham - Vice-President Engineering,                   |
| Quantic EMC Inc.                  Headquarters               |
| Croft House, Chilcompton,         191 Lombard Ave., Winnipeg,|
| Somerset, UK, BA3 4JA             Manitoba, Canada R3B 0X1   |
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| Mobile: 44 (0)7971 553260                                    |
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http://www.quantic-emc.com <http://www.quantic-emc.com>  |

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