[SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
- From: John Howard <jhoward@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: francis.kai@xxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:57:24 -0800
Gentlemen,
I've thoroughly enjoyed this debate on the demise of EE education and
your thoughts on improving it. I would like to let you all know of the
activity
by the IEEE EMC Society to at least do something about the paucity of EMC
education. I chair a committee under the Education arm of the EMCS which
offers a modest grant to any qualified University (worldwide) to encourage
the initial offering of a EMC class to undergraduate and/or graduate
students.
As a long time EMC consultant I regularly teach classes on EMC and I very
much agree with the view that today's engineers are poorly gifted in some EE
fundamentals. This has prompted me to carry the banner in a small way for
the EMCS. I also agree with the earlier comment about the vanishing numbers
of qualified Fields and Waves professors. They are becoming evanescent :-)
Come back to me if anyone is further interested in my University Grant deal.
Best Regards
John Howard
EMC Consultant
Kai, Francis wrote:
>Jim,
>
> Thank you. This is exactly what I want to say:
>"rule of thumb" without reasoning will hurt instead
>of help students. My undergraduate electronics teacher
>did not teach me "Miller capacitance" well in Jacob Millman's
>red textbook.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Francis Kai
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Freeman [mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:05 PM
>To: sainath@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc: Si-List@Freelists. Org
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
>
>
>
>Hi Sainath,
> The fact that it presupposes some rules of thumb that are simply derived
>and tries to minimize the complexity of VLSI design. I know many engineers
>who
>have cited and used the rules of thumb faithfully and had to say whoops!!
>later
>on. The vintage engineers usually understand the underlying concepts such as
>miller capacitance, device ratios and layout that prevent obvious mistakes.
>
>Thanks
>Jim Freeman
>
>Sainath Nimmagadda wrote:
>
>>Hi Jim,
>>
>>You've made some statement about Carver & Mead approach. What about their
>>approach that makes you so unhappy?
>>
>>Sainath
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 2:10 PM
>>To: Kai, Francis
>>Cc: Howard Johnson; ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>>owsley@xxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
>>
>>Hi Francis,
>> I think you missed the point. I am saying that basic understanding of
>>how
>>an electron performs and how a magnetic field is developed are being
>>
>taught
>
>>insufficiently. This may be happening for several reasons. A basic
>>
>distaste
>
>>for
>>the material by the students and the faculty, lack of understanding about
>>these
>>concepts by the people who are supposed to teach them, lack of ability to
>>communicate the concepts by those who are supposed to teach them, or a
>>feeling
>>that they are somehow irrelavent in the modern computing age of today.
>> As for the VLSI courses that are taught today in undergraduate
>>
>studies,
>
>>most of them rely on a Carver & Mead approach that to my mind is not only
>>useless but damaging to understanding of VLSI.
>>
>>Thanks
>>Jim Freeman
>>
>>"Kai, Francis" wrote:
>>
>>>Dear SI gurus:
>>>
>>> Although all of you are great experts on SI and EMI, please allow
>>>
>me
>
>>>to say one word or two since I had been a student and an Assistant
>>>Professor in Electrical and Computer Engineering.
>>>
>>> I think the undergraduate education should be based on fundamentals
>>>and the graduate education should be focused on a special field. I do
>>>
>not
>
>>>think we need to teach "signal integrity" or "EMI" in undergraduate
>>>
>>studies.
>>
>>>Basic circuit theory, electronics (digital and analog circuit design),
>>>
>>solid
>>
>>>state devices, electromagnetics and electromagnetic waves theory, and
>>>
>VLSI
>
>>>circuit design are the key courses. If the instructor (professor or
>>>lecturer)
>>>can pass these concepts clearly to the students in the above fields,
>>>
>then
>
>>we
>>
>>>will have good engineers. You don't need to know how to calculate skews,
>>>crosstalks, PEECs, and other SI concepts in undergraduate studies
>>>
>because
>
>>>if you have excellent background in circuit theory, EM&EMW, you can
>>>
>easily
>
>>>pick up these concepts.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Francis Kai
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jim Freeman [mailto:freeman@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:08 AM
>>>To: Howard Johnson
>>>Cc: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; owsley@xxxxxxxxx
>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSDD: Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
>>>
>>>Dear Howard,
>>> The situation at Rice is not unlike the situation at Purdue while I
>>>was attending. When I started as a freshman engineering student, the
>>>requirement for graduation was for 141 semester hours of education.
>>>Before I could graduate, the pressure of open universities, drop in
>>>engineering education( it was deemed by most undergraduates as too hard.
>>>Also, the layoffs in 1969 due to the implosion of the aerospace industry
>>>and the visual in the newspaper of a Phd. in Aeronautical engineering
>>>sweeping the floor of a gas station as a part-time attendant as a
>>>reminder of the corporate rewards for such hard work), and the general
>>>attitude in the U.S. that we needed the war on poverty and the vietnam
>>>war at the same time caused Purdue to streamline the education and
>>>reduce the number of hours required to 120 hours. This was done at the
>>>expense of the engineering courses and not the required humanities. I am
>>>all for both(I amassed 157 semester hours in the 8 semesters and a
>>>summer session that I attended) but to weaken the programs was probably
>>>a mistake.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>Jim Freeman
>>>
>>>Howard Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dear Jim Freeman,
>>>>
>>>>I agree with you whole-heartedly that EE education is being shunted
>>>>aside
>>>>in favor of computer science at many universities. It's unfortunately,
>>>>really, that
>>>>educators have to make such decisions, but understandable of course.
>>>>Out of
>>>>the torrent of papers, conferences, and new information available each
>>>>year they
>>>>have to choose what is worthy of presentation to new students, and
>>>>what has become
>>>>"passe" or is available otherwise as "on-the-job" training. For
>>>>example, at my
>>>>alma matter Rice University I've heard rumors that the EE curriculum
>>>>may soon be
>>>>dropped or scaled back. From my perspective, eliminating subjects like
>>>>transmission
>>>>lines, electromagnetic fields, (low voltage) power distribution and
>>>>interconnect
>>>>modeling would be a mistake, but then I don't get to make such
>>>>decisions (and I'm
>>>>glad I don't have to).
>>>>
>>>>Clayton Paul has done a lot to popularize the teaching of EMC
>>>>in colleges and universities with his textbook "Introduction to
>>>>Electromagnetic
>>>>Compatibility" and his persistent efforts within the IEEE to discuss
>>>>EE
>>>>curriculum. At this point I'm wondering who will step forward to do
>>>>the same job
>>>>for the field of signal integrity.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
>>>>tel 509-997-0505, howiej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>http:\\signalintegrity.com -- High-Speed Digital Design articles,
>>>>books, tools, and seminars
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Freeman
>>>>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:17 PM
>>>>To: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; owsley@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Position Open READ THIS!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi All,
>>>> Howard's article compares vintage with EMC. As one of the vintage
>>>>engineers,
>>>>I think the problem is really in the conversion from an emphasis on
>>>>the
>>>>ELECTRICAL in E.E. to an emphasis on computers in electrical
>>>>engineering. Most
>>>>engineers who graduate today think of electrons as an anachronism, if
>>>>they think
>>>>of them at all.
>>>> As us vintage engineers remember, we were educated when the
>>>>transition was
>>>>occurring from motors, relays and tubes to a solid-state emphasis. We
>>>>have
>>>>performed our engineering job so well that those who practice
>>>>engineering today
>>>>don't worry about solid-state. it just works. We are generally in the
>>>>same boat
>>>>with today's engineers in regard to motor theory because it was being
>>>>de-emphasized in our education.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>Jim Freeman
>>>>
>>>>Mike Ventham wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Greetings All,
>>>>>
>>>>>I think Howard has now recognized vintage as being related to bald.
>>>>>
>>>>>See "NOT ALL EMC ENGINEERS ARE BALD"
>>>>>Don't believe every myth you hear.
>>>>>http://article.EDNMag.com/UM/T.ASP?A5.12.1729.9.1940859194
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:28 19/06/01, Bill Owsley wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>At 11:45 PM 06/18/2001 +0100, Mike Ventham wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The same seems to go for EMC engineers. I have met many who are
>>>>>>>
>>>>'old'
>>>>
>>>>>>the politically correct now use 'vintage' instead of 'old' - like
>>>>>>
>>>>in wine...
>>>>
>>>>>>;>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>analog engineers!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At 23:19 18/06/01, you wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>i kinda get the feeling that its the other way around... a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>true SI
>>>>
>>>>>>guy is a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>microwave guy who's turned digital. ;-) all the digital guys
>>>>>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>pick up
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>on a little microwave are just SI wannabe's.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>miker
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>p.s. i'm a digital guy and the above is said tongue-in-cheek.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(snipped for bandwidth)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------
>>>>>>Bill Owsley, owsley@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>919) 392-8341
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Compliance Engineer
>>>>>>Cisco Systems
>>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>________________________________________________________________
>>>>>| Mike Ventham - Vice-President Engineering, |
>>>>>| Quantic EMC Inc. Headquarters |
>>>>>| Croft House, Chilcompton, 191 Lombard Ave., Winnipeg,|
>>>>>| Somerset, UK, BA3 4JA Manitoba, Canada R3B 0X1 |
>>>>>| Tel: 44 (0)1761 232191 Tel: (204) 942 4000 |
>>>>>| Fax: 44 (0)7974 141685 Fax: (204) 957 1158 |
>>>>>| Mobile: 44 (0)7971 553260 |
>>>>>| Email: ventham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.quantic-emc.com |
>>>>>
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