[SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Boar d Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???

Hi All,
        I think it is a marketing ploy to develop damaging info on a particular
tool.

Thanks
Jim Freeman

steve weir wrote:
> Julian, I don't think we are dealing with an engineer here at 
> all.  Engineers look for solutions.  This guy is clearly looking for 
> blame.  I think our mystery guest is a lawyer trying to develop evidence 
> for some lawsuit.  Never does he ask for work-arounds to any 
> problems.  Never does he ask for alternative programs if SQ is not a good 
> enough answer.  Never does he offer a single case to back up his allegation 
> that SQ is useless.  But what he does do is dance, dance, dance, never 
> losing sight of his theme: "Give me evidence in the form of expert testimony."
> 
> First he lobs his charges that the product is unusable.  Then he feigns a 
> claim that he wants to be fair.  First he claims he is interested in the 
> tool for his own work.  Then later he claims he is researching for a 
> client.   Hmm, he is not the originator, but he feels HE needs to be 
> anonymous.  Right!  And the Plutoxin 7 virus kills in ten hours.
> 
> But like a diligent inquisitor our mystery guest always comes back to his 
> theme:  "Give me evidence of a product defect."  More importantly, he is 
> not interested in what any issue might be large or small, specific or 
> general, only that it can be "reproduced/verified", as in it has 
> evidentiary value.  He implores the timid:  "If my obvious duplicity makes 
> you feel nervous, you can slip your evidence right here under the rock I 
> just crawled out from under.  Just look for the one with the oozing 
> stench.  In the meantime, I will be billing my client $450. per 
> hour.  Thanks for all the fish."
> 
> Don't we have some Cadence people on the reflector?  I suggest they forward 
> our mystery guests posts to their legal dept.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve.
> 
> At 10:53 AM 11/23/2005 -0500, Julian Ferry wrote:
> 
>>Maybe I'll add something here too.  In our SI work, we use simulators like
>>SpectraQuest (or whatever its called this week), Hspice, Pspice, Berkeley
>>spice, and  Eagleware/Agilent; field solvers from Ansoft, CST,  Flowmerics,
>>and a couple other vendors; and model extraction  and simulation software
> 
>>from TDA Systems/Tektronix, and Agilent; and some stuff of our own creation.
> 
>>And I'm probably forgetting a few.
>>
>>And to be blunt: they all suck!
>>
>>Every single package has problems and issues that need to be discovered,
>>understood, and worked around. And each time there is a new rev, we have to
>>go through it all again.
>>
>>But we accept the fact that we need to use these tools, warts and all,
>>because they are the best tools currently available to us. Hopefully, six
>>months from now, they'll all be little bit better.
>>
>>Its very easy to throw stones at the negatives inherent to all packages.
>>But, at the end of the day, the benefits outweigh the frustrations, or we
>>wouldn't use them at all.
>>
>>Julian Ferry
>>High Speed Engineering Manager
>>Samtec, Inc
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff (twesterh)
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:15 AM
>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board Level
>>Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>
>>Mystery Guy, I'm afraid you've missed the point.  All tools have bugs
>>and issues - it's just a matter of degree.  We're talking about a
>>relatively small market that is using some very complex tools.  Throw in
>>the fact that the problem is constantly getting more complex (speeds go
>>up), and it should be common sense that bugs and problems are going to
>>be an ongoing issue.  As others have said, using these tools requires
>>experience and good judgment.
>>
>>We've seen issues that could be reproduced, and issues that couldn't be
>>reproduced - with any tool you care to name.
>>
>>If you're looking for meaningful input, I suggest you name the
>>application you're designing to (for instance, DDR2-SDRAM/533 MT/s) -
>>then ask people whether they've been successful with a particular tool
>>and if they know of any "gotchas" should be on the lookout for.
>>
>>Asking "has anyone heard of problems" via an anonymous request just has
>>a cloak-and-dagger feel to it.  This is engineering, not drama.
>>
>>Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it,
>>
>>Todd. =20
>>
>>
>>Todd Westerhoff
>>High Speed Design Group Manager
>>Cisco Systems
>>1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx
>>ph: 978-936-2149
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>=20
>>"Always do right.
>> This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
>>=20
>>- Mark Twain
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:36 PM
>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board
>>Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>
>>Please forgive the anonymous aspect of the request.  I do not wish to
>>steer the result by way of company name/individual's name, nor do I wish
>>to embarrass the originator of the request.  This is not an attempt to
>>tarnish any tool maker's reputation, and my apologies if the request
>>comes across that way.  There is no intended assertion that a problem
>>exists by way of the request itself.
>>  =20
>>  I am asking the SI experts of the world if anyone has experienced
>>issues with SQ that would lead to concern about the results.  It may be
>>the case that the answer is no and experts have been using this tool
>>quite extensively, in which case a strong assertion to this effect would
>>be in order.  I am not saying that either answer is right or wrong, but
>>the request was intended to illicit candid opinions from the experts.
>>  =20
>>  If you have seen an issue that can be reproduced/confirmed, please
>>feel free to pass along directly if you wish to remain anonymous about
>>this topic.
>>  =20
>>  Thanks for your patience.
>> =20
>>Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>   =20
>>The message posted anonymously to the list earlier today=20
>>  =20
>>  (deleted)
>>Regards,
>>
>>-Ray Anderson
>>(si-list admin)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:06 PM
>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board Level
>>Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>
>>Gurus,
>>=3D20
>>I recently heard a fellow say that SpecctraQuest is not an acceptable
>>tool for SI simulation ...........=3D20
>>
>>(remainder deleted)
>>
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>> =20
>>
>>
>>        =09
>>---------------------------------
>> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. =20
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