[SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Boar d Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???

Julian, I don't think we are dealing with an engineer here at 
all.  Engineers look for solutions.  This guy is clearly looking for 
blame.  I think our mystery guest is a lawyer trying to develop evidence 
for some lawsuit.  Never does he ask for work-arounds to any 
problems.  Never does he ask for alternative programs if SQ is not a good 
enough answer.  Never does he offer a single case to back up his allegation 
that SQ is useless.  But what he does do is dance, dance, dance, never 
losing sight of his theme: "Give me evidence in the form of expert testimony."

First he lobs his charges that the product is unusable.  Then he feigns a 
claim that he wants to be fair.  First he claims he is interested in the 
tool for his own work.  Then later he claims he is researching for a 
client.   Hmm, he is not the originator, but he feels HE needs to be 
anonymous.  Right!  And the Plutoxin 7 virus kills in ten hours.

But like a diligent inquisitor our mystery guest always comes back to his 
theme:  "Give me evidence of a product defect."  More importantly, he is 
not interested in what any issue might be large or small, specific or 
general, only that it can be "reproduced/verified", as in it has 
evidentiary value.  He implores the timid:  "If my obvious duplicity makes 
you feel nervous, you can slip your evidence right here under the rock I 
just crawled out from under.  Just look for the one with the oozing 
stench.  In the meantime, I will be billing my client $450. per 
hour.  Thanks for all the fish."

Don't we have some Cadence people on the reflector?  I suggest they forward 
our mystery guests posts to their legal dept.

Regards,


Steve.

At 10:53 AM 11/23/2005 -0500, Julian Ferry wrote:
>Maybe I'll add something here too.  In our SI work, we use simulators like
>SpectraQuest (or whatever its called this week), Hspice, Pspice, Berkeley
>spice, and  Eagleware/Agilent; field solvers from Ansoft, CST,  Flowmerics,
>and a couple other vendors; and model extraction  and simulation software
>from TDA Systems/Tektronix, and Agilent; and some stuff of our own creation.
>And I'm probably forgetting a few.
>
>And to be blunt: they all suck!
>
>Every single package has problems and issues that need to be discovered,
>understood, and worked around. And each time there is a new rev, we have to
>go through it all again.
>
>But we accept the fact that we need to use these tools, warts and all,
>because they are the best tools currently available to us. Hopefully, six
>months from now, they'll all be little bit better.
>
>Its very easy to throw stones at the negatives inherent to all packages.
>But, at the end of the day, the benefits outweigh the frustrations, or we
>wouldn't use them at all.
>
>Julian Ferry
>High Speed Engineering Manager
>Samtec, Inc
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff (twesterh)
>Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:15 AM
>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board Level
>Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>
>Mystery Guy, I'm afraid you've missed the point.  All tools have bugs
>and issues - it's just a matter of degree.  We're talking about a
>relatively small market that is using some very complex tools.  Throw in
>the fact that the problem is constantly getting more complex (speeds go
>up), and it should be common sense that bugs and problems are going to
>be an ongoing issue.  As others have said, using these tools requires
>experience and good judgment.
>
>We've seen issues that could be reproduced, and issues that couldn't be
>reproduced - with any tool you care to name.
>
>If you're looking for meaningful input, I suggest you name the
>application you're designing to (for instance, DDR2-SDRAM/533 MT/s) -
>then ask people whether they've been successful with a particular tool
>and if they know of any "gotchas" should be on the lookout for.
>
>Asking "has anyone heard of problems" via an anonymous request just has
>a cloak-and-dagger feel to it.  This is engineering, not drama.
>
>Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it,
>
>Todd. =20
>
>
>Todd Westerhoff
>High Speed Design Group Manager
>Cisco Systems
>1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx
>ph: 978-936-2149
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
>"Always do right.
>  This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
>=20
>- Mark Twain
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:36 PM
>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board
>Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>
>Please forgive the anonymous aspect of the request.  I do not wish to
>steer the result by way of company name/individual's name, nor do I wish
>to embarrass the originator of the request.  This is not an attempt to
>tarnish any tool maker's reputation, and my apologies if the request
>comes across that way.  There is no intended assertion that a problem
>exists by way of the request itself.
>   =20
>   I am asking the SI experts of the world if anyone has experienced
>issues with SQ that would lead to concern about the results.  It may be
>the case that the answer is no and experts have been using this tool
>quite extensively, in which case a strong assertion to this effect would
>be in order.  I am not saying that either answer is right or wrong, but
>the request was intended to illicit candid opinions from the experts.
>   =20
>   If you have seen an issue that can be reproduced/confirmed, please
>feel free to pass along directly if you wish to remain anonymous about
>this topic.
>   =20
>   Thanks for your patience.
>  =20
>Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>    =20
>The message posted anonymously to the list earlier today=20
>   =20
>   (deleted)
>Regards,
>
>-Ray Anderson
>(si-list admin)
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:06 PM
>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [SI-LIST] HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Board Level
>Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>
>Gurus,
>=3D20
>I recently heard a fellow say that SpecctraQuest is not an acceptable
>tool for SI simulation ...........=3D20
>
>(remainder deleted)
>
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