Hi Alan, I have now found the Doug smith website is www.dsmith.org. CHEERS ROSS -----Original Message----- From: Alan Hilton-Nickel [mailto:ahilton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: 07 August 2002 23:28 To: Johnston, Ross Cc: Si List (E-mail) Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Ground plane split widths... Ross, Excuse me, but I am a little confused - how do you plan to "completely isolate" the ground plane? You still need some DC connection to the power supply ground, unless you go with an independent IO supply and optoisolators. I suspect you are looking at some sort of "single point" ground scheme, which connects all the grounds at the supply output. This will likely cause problems. You mention three concerns - 1. To stop noise coming out from the logic ground onto the I/O signals. Noise in one area of a ground plane doesn't just "come out" onto your cables - it has to be coupled in, either by direct conduction through shared return paths or by radiation. If you lay out the board to minimize the shared power/ground paths, and your loop inductance is low due to a contiguous ground and power plane, there should be no problem. If you isolate the grounds, you may increase the inductance of the signals going to the IO circuitry. This will cause them signal to radiate noise onto the cables, regardless of how carefully you route them. 2. To stop noise entering into the logic ground from the I/O cabling etc. Similarly, if you isolate the grounds, you will likely increase the inductance of the signals coming out of the IO circuitry. This will cause the cables to radiate into the logic or to the surrounding environment. Properly shielded cable will also minimize the noise coming into the environment. "Proper shielding" includes a low-inductance ground connection, to the chassis if possible. 3. To provide isolation from ESD and external EMC events. From what I can see, an "external EMC event" is the same as #2. ESD is a serious concern. You need parts that can withstand a direct ESD event, and you need to isolate them physically from the ESD source. I understand a separation on the order of 1mm/1000V is necessary, so if you want to avoid direct conduction of a 10kV ESD event, you need to guarantee 10 mm of separation of the circuitry from the source (using the enclosure to isolate the circuit from operator fingers, for instance). Doug Smith and his website at www.DougSmith.com are a great resource for both EMI and ESD. The one benefit that you will get from isolating the IO ground is that you are placing the IO circuitry in a small area. That will probably avoid the problem of shared return paths. The stitching caps will help, but really, a good, non-segmented ground plane is better. I suggest you design the IO circuits as though the isolation is there, but don't isolate the grounds. The structure of your board suggests another way of opening up unintentional loops. When a trace has to be routed from one side of the board to another, the return path gets broken (power and ground are not connected), and this will cause EMI. Keep your power and ground planes close together to take advantage of inter-plane capacitance. The separation depends on the edge rates of your signals, 10 mils *may* be sufficient, but I usually shoot for 2 mils. This may be tough on a 4-layer board, since you are (hopefully) maintaining a specified impedance and meeting a board thickness requirment. If you can't get enough interplane capacitance, then wherever your routing traverses through a via from one side to the other, place a capacitor close by. Engineers that I see trying to isolate grounds end up taking out the splits - on the second spin of the board, after they've failed EMC testing. Regards, Alan "Johnston, Ross" wrote: > > Hi Alan, > > The I/O being isolated is standard PC I/O (ie. VGA connector, serial, > parallel, audio). The thinking behind completely isolating the IO ground > from main logic ground is threefold:- > 1. To stop noise coming out from the logic ground onto the I/O signals. > 2. To stop noise entering into the logic ground from the I/O cabling etc. > 3. To provide isolation from ESD and external EMC events. > > I am aware that there would be an issue of traces crossing plane splits with > respect to return currents. However, I have stitching capacitors fitted > across the split at the point where traces cross the split (to provide a > path for the return current). > > My board is a standard 4 layer motherboard with tracking on the top and > bottom layers and power and ground in between. > > CHEERS > > ROSS > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Hilton-Nickel [mailto:ahilton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: 06 August 2002 22:55 > To: Johnston, Ross > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Ground plane split widths... > > Ross, > > Unless you have a desire for pain, I'd recommend *reducing* the split > width...to > zero. > > I don't know what I/O you are trying to isolate, but the return currents > that > would normally go through the ground planewill just find another route - > probably through your chassis. This opens up a big inductive loop. Even if > it > doesn't result in bandwidth limitation due to signal integrity violations, > it > will cause your board to radiate EMI. > > Regards, > Alan Hilton-Nickel > Transmeta Corp > Santa Clara, California > > "Johnston, Ross" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > My design is basically a pc motherboard. I have isolated the I/O ground > from > > the logic ground. Currently the ground plane split is 15 thou - I am > > contemplating increasing this width. Should the split be kept as small as > > possible? If so - why? If the ground split was too small, wouldn't noise > be > > coupled across from each plane? What is the general consensus on this? > > > > CHEERS > > > > Ross Johnston > > Electronics Design Engineer, > > Core Electronics Group, > > Lifecycle GST, > > NCR FSG (Scotland) Ltd, > > Discovery Centre 2nd Floor West, > > 3 Fulton Road > > Dundee, > > Scotland DD2 4SW > > Tel: +44 (0)1382 592920 Direct Dial > > Fax: +44 (0)1382 591089 > > email: ross.johnston@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu