[SI-LIST] Fw: Re: Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane Pair

> Dear All
> 
> I have maken some more simulation. I confirmed that the structure of ports 
> would not greatly affected the transfer impedance although it will affect the 
> self impedance. I have checked my HFSS simulation, there is no problem.
> 
> Another point, the measurement result and the theoritical result about 
> rectangle power plane pair do not agree to each other when the dielectric is 
> about 0.55 mil.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Zhangkun
> 2006.10.28
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yang Rui" <yangrui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Zhiping Yang" <zyang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx>; 
> <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 1:31 PM
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane Pair
> 
> 
> HI, Zhiping,
> 
> Let's come back to the equation (2) of this paper: "Estimating the Power
> Bus Impedance of Printed Circuit Boards With Embedded Capacitance, IEEE
> Trans on Advanced Package, Aug. 2002"
> 
> Following assumptions are made: power plane and ground plane are assumed
> to be PEC, the four side walls of substrate are assumed to be PMC. These
> have been clearly specified in the paper. But there is one more
> assumption was made which is not mentioned in the paper, which is:
> Kz=0 because of the distance between power and ground plane are too
> small compared with the plane size, which means the cutoff frequency of
> Z-direction guided mode is much higher than our current practical
> consideration, so we can ignore it. Therefore the equation(2) stands
> right. If Kz is needed to be taken into consideration, I believe you can
> find more rigorous 3-D cavity mode expansion formular.
> 
> And the above equation is for bare rectangular shape power/ground pair,
> since Kun is doing comparison between HFSS simulation with this
> equation, I don't think there is any perforation or via structure in his
> simulation model. Please correct me if I am wrong. Even in HFSS
> simulation model, there are few small vias included for measurement
> purpose, the introduce inductance is still trivial comparing with the
> inductance from the plane itself, I don't expect this factor will shift
> the resoance noticeable.
> 
> I would use this equation in different way by comparing the first series
> resonance and first few parallel resonances frequency between HFSS
> simulation and the resonance predicted by cavity resonance method. 
> 
> Regards,
> Yang Rui
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zhiping Yang [mailto:zyang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:03
> To: Yang Rui; zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane
> Pair
> 
> Rui, Kun's original question is HFSS simulation versus theoretical
> formula.  In you case, it is simulation versus lab measurement.  These
> are two different comparisons.
> 
> Question to Kun, at what frequency, the simulation and theoretical
> formula start to differ? And how big the difference is?
> 
> Regards,
> Zhiping
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Yang Rui
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:52 PM
> To: Zhiping Yang; zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane Pair
> 
> HI, ZhiPing and ZhangKun,
> 
> From my simulation experience, I had very consistent simulation &
> measurement results for multilayer power structure up to 18GHz.
> 
> For HFSS simulation for this type of structure, the size of power/ground
> plane (horizontal plane) is much bigger than the thickness of the
> substrate between power and ground plane, HFSS generate the initial mesh
> is very coarse, therefore the convergence is very slow if without proper
> intial mesh seeding.=20
> 
> I would like to take a look of your model, you can drop me a mail.
> 
> Thank you and Regards,
> Yang Rui=20
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Zhiping Yang
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:35
> To: zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane Pair
> 
> Hi Zhang Kun,
> 
> Two things could cause HFSS simulation results differ from theoretical
> results.  One is boundary condition and the other one is the excitation
> port settings.
> 
> For your case, most likely it was due to port settings.  Did you use via
> in your HFSS simulation at the port?  The coupling between via and
> power/ground planes, and coupling between vias could cause resonant
> frequency changes.=3D20
> 
> The theoretical equation is based on certain assumptions.  One of them
> is that E field is vertical between power/ground planes.  In real
> simulations, any openings on power/ground plane could invalidate this
> assumption, so it is very difficult to match simulation and theoretical
> results.
> 
> Regards,
> Zhiping
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Zhangkun
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:10 PM
> To: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Transfer Impedance of Regular Power Plane Pair
> 
> Dear All
> In the current research, we found an interesting result about the
> transfer impedance of regular power plane pair. We need some help to
> solve the problem. We use HFSS to simulate the impednce of regular power
> plane pair. Any advice would be helpful.
> 
> According to the theory, the transfer impedance of regular power plane
> pair coudl be expressed by means of Double Sigma Function. In the
> expression, the thickness of dielectric would not affect the shape of
> the impedance. However, in our simulation, we found out that the
> frequency location of pole and zero of the impedance is affected by the
> thickness of the dielectric.
> 
> Reference Paper:
> Estimating the Power Bus Impedance of Printed Circuit Boards With
> Embedded Capacitance, IEEE Trans on Advanced Package, Aug. 2002
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Zhangkun
> 200610.27
> 
> 
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