[SI-LIST] Re: EMI simulation tools at PCB level

The problem with tools like SQ and HyperLynx is that they assume a perfect 
return path and perfect power delivery. There is the SQ Power Integrity 
tool, but the last time I looked, it was completely decoupled from 
Cadence's high-speed design flow. In other words, you can look at the 
effect of the stack-up and decoupling capacitors on the switching noise in 
the power/ground planes, but you can't include these effects directly into 
your SI analysis. Further, the last time I looked, SQPI could not deal with 
arbitrary plane shapes (e.g. splits, cut-outs, etc.) I know that Sigrity's 
tools can integrate all of these effects (as well as other 3D effects that 
come to bear on SI) into their SI simulations in one integrated flow. But 
their tool uses a true 3D field solver, so it's a little more difficult to 
learn to use than HyperLynx.

I don't think we're ever going to get to a point where we have one tool 
that does it all. For phenomena like EMI and the effects of very high-speed 
signals on SI, we still need to have the human, with sound fundamental 
engineering skills, firmly set in the design flow.

Just my humble opinion.

Ron Matthews
Principal MTS
Signal Integrity/EMI
Charles Stark Draper Laboratory
555 Technology Square
Cambridge, MA 02139
Voice: 617-258-2519


At 05:34 PM 12/3/2004 -0500, Kai Keskinen wrote:
>I think that this has not yet been done. Tools like FlowEMC are very good if
>you know what is radiating inside/outside the mechanicals and for simulating
>radiating/conducting structures. Tools like Allegro PCB SI (aka
>SpecctraQuest) or Hyperlynx, ICX and others are a direct interface to the
>schematic and pcb layout and are very good at simulating the signals
>travelling on the striplines/microstrip and some even have good capability
>to simulate SSN or ground bounce as well as predict emissions due to
>differential mode (magnetic). Others are better at doing power delivery
>simulation. Some try to integrate all these things. As far as I know, there
>is no tool that integrates the SI/power tools with a logic level
>timing/simulation tool that lets signals trigger at proper intervals and
>frequencies and then computes the field emissions averaged over some time
>interval. If you really wanted to, you could combine this with the IC level
>simulation/package/logic tools to get a better level of granularity. Where
>do you trade off complexity for  sufficient level of accuracy?
>
>This sounds like a cool idea but only someone who writes computer games
>combined with a team of engineers/mathematicians/programmers/physicists
>could come up with the tool. The other requirements are an efficient/easy to
>learn user interface/file/library system that allows you to
>build/input/setup your models and conditions and then simulate in some kind
>of reasonable execution time on a mid high level machine. I believe Jean-Luc
>Picard's Enterprise had software that could do this. The holo deck could let
>you see the 3-D fields switching in real time.
>
>Perhaps some of the tools vendors could take up the challenge. A few of the
>bigger guys have most of the required modules from chip level to board/small
>system level. Something that simulated various busses with their associated
>IC dynamic power draw,  with programmable fixed timing sequences that
>integrated SI, SSN, ground bounce and power delivery, with full field
>emissions in a structure/housing level EMC tool like FlowEMC that could also
>predict common mode emissions on cables would be a pretty powerful tool! It
>would also have to be affordable.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:51 PM
>To: 'Kai Keskinen'; Chris Cheng; 'Charles Grasso ';
>zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: EMI simulation tools at PCB level
>
>
>Has this been done ? Or this is one of Einstein's thought experiment ? :-D
>What if the peaks happen to related to this 100W multi-giga Hertz CPU I am
>using ? Can SpecctraQuest or Hyperlynx predict that ahead of time for me ?
>
> >If  you combined a tool like FlowEMC with a tool like SpecctraQuest or
> >Hyperlynx, with a logic simulator that allowed you to exercise the
> >board/system in a fully functional manner, so that the simulated ibis
> >devices were triggering at the right timing intervals and sending their
> >voltages/currents down the simulated tracks with the simulated
>planes/shapes
> >and sucking up and sourcing current through the simulated power delivery
> >system, in the simulated housing/shelf/frame with the attached I/O and
>power
> >cables, you could in theory get some reasonably accurate emissions profiles
> >for your board/housing/shelf/system if direct emissions from the chip
> >packages were ignored. You would also need massive memory and cpu capacity.
> >I apologize for the run on sentence.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from si-list:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
>For help:
>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>                 http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
>List technical documents are available at:
>                 http://www.si-list.org
>
>List archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>or at our remote archives:
>                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>                 http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>

------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field

List FAQ wiki page is located at:
                http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ

List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.org

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

Other related posts: