[SI-LIST] Re: Do you really ship products at BER 10e-xx ?

Al and Tom,

Since both of your response to me are similar so I will just answer one but
the point should be the same.

Before we go further, let's also follow Ed's suggestion and not rat hole
this to a DJ/RJ debate.

I've play Cal Lottery long enough to know my early retirement plan is not a
probability function based on lottery. Neither can my system design.

At the end of the day, I believe most of the phenomenons you mention below
are either predictable/bounded or the probability distribution is so small
that it will be dwarfed by the predictable noises.  


>Any real system, with a real transmitter generating some very small
>finite amount of Random Jitter, RJ, cannot operate "error free".  It is
>an issue of probabilities.  By definition, RJ is unbounded, therefore
>there is always some probability of a failure.   

Definition is arbitrary, you can claim RJ is unbounded but we need a real
example to show why a real system phenomenon is unbounded. Just because the
spec says so is meaningless.

>The jitter issue, specifically regarding serial links such as
>backplanes, can be broken down into 4 primary categories:

>1.  RJ generated from the transmitter - due to Transmitters VCO and
>Reference clock jitter transfer

I have done enough PLL analysis and testing in a digital environment to
convince myself the jitter component induced by the supply noise dwarf any
reference clock jitter transfer. And the supply noise induced jitter is a
very predictable phenomenon that is clearly not unbounded. You can both
simulate and characterize the behavior (BUTT). One can argue about whether
the supply noise can be predicted but with proper filtering and power
distribution, they can be limited to guarantee the jitter will not exceed
certain limit (once again, a bounded limit).

>2.  Deterministic jitter (DJ) due to Transmitter - Duty cycle distortion
>and Intersymbol interference, periodic jitter due to power supply and
>plane resonance

Once again, can be simulated, measured and bounded.

>3.  DJ due to the physical link - losses in the system (resonance, skin,
>dielectric), impedance mismatches, crosstalk, resonances 

Ditto.

>4.  Tolerance of the Receivers - BER measured with combinations of RJ,
>DJ and swept PJ (T11.2 Annex A)

If the above phenomenon's are bounded, it will becomes a simple whether you
make your setup/hold time or not. Nothing undeterministic about it.

>Of course, if a good transmitter and a well designed link and a receiver
>with significant tolerance is incorporated into the design, the actual
>BER will appear to be perfect, and it may be directly impractical to
>measure.  In this case, it may be necessary to add jitter to see how the
>system tolerates it with respect to the receivers tolerance.  A system
>with low RJ and significant DJ, with steep bathtub curves will not start
>to have a moderate 1E-8 BER type of problem, it will probably have
>catastrophic loss of lock and BER problems.  Chris, Andy I think this is
>the behavior you were describing, no?

May be, but it sure sounds like some instrument company or spec committee
try to push some 5 sigma spec down my throat and say "ah ha, even though
your measured jitter is blah blah blah and your system is working, but 5x
sigma later you are doomed so you need our help..."

>I would pose an interesting question for Chris - if his particular
>system has 1ps RMS more jitter on the REFCLK for a 3.125Gbpsec
>transmitter (if it had 1psec RMS initially, it now has 1.414psec RMS
>now), would it still meet BER performance for the full link?  What is
>your confidence it still works?  How much BER testing would be required?
>How well is his oscillator vendors testing their product for jitter and
>phase noise?

I would say I don't care because I believe the jitter induced by supply
noise will dwarf that input reference transfer. 1 or 2ps jitter is NOTHING
compared with the jitter induced by supply noise at the right frequency.

>How about 30mV more peak-peak switching noise at 400kHz - how tolerant
>are the PLL's from losing lock, multiply the higher freq components and
>creating a serios PJ problem, how would this impact the Receiver
>tolerance - would the system still work, would you now have occasional
>failure?  

Now that's an interesting thought and I believe where most parts can fail.
But is that an unbounded phenomenon ? I don't think so. Afterall, the same
30mV that will hit the PLL supply at say 100MHz will probably never fail the
system no matter how long you wait. The behavior and response of the PLL can
be simulated and predicted. And like I said above, that's why companies pay
me peanuts to design power distribution system that doesn't have 30mV of
noise at 400KHz in the first place (or at least protect the PLL with enough
filters that the VCO won't see that 30mV). 

>This is not meant to be critical in any way, but unfortunately most BSEE
>programs do not require a single class in Stochastic Processes (after
>all who in their right mind would elect that class), and that is why a
>lot of the engineering community graples with abstract jitter issues.
>We have not been trained to think "stochastically".  

Sorry Al, I don't know jack about stochastic process but none of the above
is undeterministic or at least big enough when compared with the predictable
part.

I would propose another explanation for these BER 10e-xx spec or bath tub
curves for electrical physical channels. It is based on the laziness of the
engineer who really doesn't want to dig down to analyze and predict these
effects such as ISI, PLL jitter or crosstalk so he/she just stick the probe
at the receiver and measure the jitter and say "hmmm, I don't know where
they come from so let's just call them noise/jitter and extrapolate 5x sigma
to sand bag myself with enough margin and ship it." And that I suspect, is
why you will ultimately have those intermittent failures.

And if you bring in Mr. Heisenberg, I am out of here.
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field

or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field

List FAQ wiki page is located at:
                http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ

List technical documents are available at:
                http://www.si-list.org

List archives are viewable at:     
                http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
  

Other related posts: