[SI-LIST] Re: DDR2 2-slot design preference...
- From: <art_porter@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:11:39 -0600
Just by the way, one of the best books I've read in years is "The Logic =
of Failure" by Dietrich Dorner. The thesis of the book is that the most =
spectacular and legendary failures are the result of excellent planning =
by highly intelligent, well-informed experts. The question people fail =
to ask is "How could this fail?"=20
Art Porter
Agilent Technologies
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =
On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:56 AM
To: Scott McMorrow
Cc: Steve Weir; Monji.Jabori@xxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR2 2-slot design preference...
I guess Truman as quoting one of these gentlemen as he used it in one of
his press conferences regarding some economic numbers.
I'd still like to see real data showing that a failure happened. Since
there are so many people saying this happens, there has to be an example =
or
two that can be shared. I've had no trouble getting my clients to use
failure data in my classes to illustrate a point. In fact, most of the
material in my classes comes for actual failures. Said another way, =
there
is no such thing as a failure. They can always be used as bad examples.
> [Original Message]
> From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: Steve Weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>; <Monji.Jabori@xxxxxx>;
<si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 10/29/2007 4:51:36 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR2 2-slot design preference...
>
> Lee
> Actually that quote should either be attributed to Mark Twain, or=20
> Benjamin Disraeli, not Truman. Twain claimed he'd heard it from =
Disraeli.
>
> As for whether cavity resonances occur, that's an indisputable fact. =20
> They do occur, and they can be very easily measured and correlated to=20
> simulation. Whether they cause an issue is a matter of magnitude,=20
> whether it be EMI, PI, or SI. I can assure you that many a memory=20
> system has failed in the past, and will fail in the future, because of =
> cavity resonance in the power/ground cavity, when signals transition. =
> This was one of the root causes (there were several) of early Rambus=20
> system failures, and is the reason why all DDR-II double data-rate=20
> signals are specified to be ground referenced from controller to =
memory=20
> module.
>
>
> scott
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>
>
>
> Lee Ritchey wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > I have that paper and have read it. It does not corellate from the
tests
> > made to any real EMI failures. It just shows that ground stitching
> > results in a difference. There is a claim that this helpes solve a
problem
> > with a real product, but no data was presented. (There are many =
such
> > claims by EMI "Gurus" about their rules of thumb that turn out to be
just
> > that and this paper shows one, the 20H rule for one.)=20
> >
> > Again, show me a real failure from cavity resonances, either =
functional
or
> > EMI not a simulation.
> >
> > Truman used to say there are lies, damn lies and statistics. In =
our
> > profession there are lies, damn lies and unvalidated simulations, =
and,
no,
> > that paper does not demonstrate a direct correlation between the =
things
> > simulated and real failures, just before and after differences.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > =20
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Cc: <Monji.Jabori@xxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Date: 10/29/2007 10:27:21 AM
> >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR2 2-slot design preference...
> >>
> >> Lee, the case at issue was a GND-GND cavity, but applies equally =
well=20
> >> for mixed voltages. The physics are indisputable. The issue is =
how
bad=20
> >> does the problem have to be before we get: a) EMI radiation, and =
EFT
/=20
> >> ESD susceptibility, or b) signal integrity issues.=20
> >>
> >> The good news is that until we get to ultrafast edge rates the =
simple=20
> >> remedy for the GND-GND case is simply stitch with sufficient =
density. =20
> >> That is becoming tougher for GND-VCC cavities, but can still be =
done
in=20
> >> many cases. It depends on just how much energy one wants injects =
into=20
> >> the cavity and what the spectrum of that energy looks like.
> >>
> >> For an example of a real-life case where adding stitching fixed a =
real=20
> >> problem get a hold of EMC2 / Ansoft paper delivered in Santa Clara
just=20
> >> last week. There you will see good correlation between both the
models=20
> >> and the measurements demonstrating the phenomenon. In their case =
the=20
> >> stitch was good enough for signaling but was generating an EMI =
issue.
> >>
> >> In the past few years the speed and accuracy of various simulation=20
> >> methods has improved immensely. This permits designers to play
what-if=20
> >> and get excellent performance without becoming slaves to ad-hoc =
rules.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve.
> >>
> >> Lee Ritchey wrote:
> >> =20
> >>> I have heard many times about cavity resonances between power and
ground
> >>> planes being the source of problems. However, I have yet to see =
any
> >>> =20
> > clear
> > =20
> >>> proof that such things happen and I have never seen a product fail
from
> >>> this in the design of 3000+ PCBs. Could those who claim this =
happens
> >>> please supply some evidence of this? Not simulations, but actual
> >>> =20
> > measured
> > =20
> >>> results and not a statement that the last place it happened was at =
a
> >>> =20
> > client
> > =20
> >>> who has an NDA in place that prevents revealing the data.
> >>>
> >>> Lee Ritchey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =20
> >>> =20
> >>>> [Original Message]
> >>>> From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <Monji.Jabori@xxxxxx>
> >>>> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Date: 10/27/2007 2:09:16 PM
> >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DDR2 2-slot design preference...
> >>>>
> >>>> Jabori, the issue in each case will be the resonant frequency of =
the
> >>>> =20
> > GND=20
> > =20
> >>>> - GND cavity. Stitch the cavity with an adequate via density to =
get
> >>>> =20
> > the=20
> > =20
> >>>> resonance well above your signal energy and either topology can =
be
> >>>> =20
> > made=20
> > =20
> >>>> to work well.
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve.
> >>>> Jabori, Monji wrote:
> >>>> =20
> >>>> =20
> >>>>> Hi Experts,
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am looking at two designs for a 2-slot DDR2-800 memory system. =
One
> >>>>> =20
> > is
> > =20
> >>>>> a butterfly design and the other has the slot on opposite sides =
of
the
> >>>>> motherboard (top and bottom).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am looking at the GND reference for both designs and have the
> >>>>> following question knowing that I have to use GND referenced =
layers
> >>>>> =20
> > for
> > =20
> >>>>> each DDR2 channel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For a butterfly design, my traces on an 8-layer design will flow
from
> >>>>> the memory controller via 2 internal layers with 2 different GND
> >>>>> =20
> > layers,
> > =20
> >>>>> i.e., one slot will have to change GND reference while the other
will
> >>>>> not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In an opposite 2-slot design, however, we can make the traces =
that
go
> >>>>> =20
> > to
> > =20
> >>>>> each internal layer have the same GND reference as the DIMM that =
is
> >>>>> closer to it. For example, the Top DIMM will have the same GND
> >>>>> =20
> > reference
> > =20
> >>>>> (L2) as its channel traces coming on L3 while the Bottom DIMM =
will
> >>>>> =20
> > have
> > =20
> >>>>> its GND reference (L7) as its channel traces coming on L6.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Having said the above, would you guys prefer one design over =
another
> >>>>> from an Signal Integrity point of view??
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks in advance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monji
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =
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> >> --=20
> >> Steve Weir
> >> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC=20
> >> 121 North River Drive=20
> >> Narragansett, RI 02882=20
> >>
> >> California office
> >> (408) 884-3985 Business
> >> (707) 780-1951 Fax
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> >>
> >> http://www.teraspeed.com
> >> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual =
property
> >> =20
> > of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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