Um, "mil" as in one thousandth of an inch, has only one L. The other is a type of factory. Small point but it hurts my eyes... On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:09:25 -0700 Terry Fox <tfox@xxxxxxxxx> writes: > Charles, > > The simulation was made with both differential signal traces on the > top > layer of the PCB. > > There was 0.5 oz solder mask (Er of 3.3) on top of a > 0.5 oz copper trace that was 5 mills wide. > 3 mills of dielectric Er 4.3 loss tangent 0.02 > 1 oz solid plane. > > The two pictures showed a trace to trace separation of 1 mills ... > ie 1X > trace to plane distance and 30 mills ... ie 10X trace to plane > distance. > > In both cases the traces were 5 mills wide and 3 mills above the > ground plane. > > > TFox > > At 03:43 PM 7/2/2007, Grasso, Charles wrote: > > >Terry - A quick check shows that your results were derived using a > >microstrip cross section with no mask coating. Is that correct? > > > >Best Regards > >Charles Grasso > >Compliance Engineer > >Echostar Communications Corp. > >Tel: 303-706-5467 > >Fax: 303-799-6222 > >Cell: 303-204-2974 > >Pager/Short Message: 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx > >Email: charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > >On Behalf Of Terry Fox > >Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:17 PM > >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DC-blocking transmission-line > > > >Aubrey, Ron, > > > >I always appreciate learning something through the experience of > others > >rather than having to get it the hard way. > > > >I suspect there is a certain amount of conflict in our terminology. > > > >I placed a short explanation about what I was talking about on > >http://www.siemc.com/SI_List.htm > > > >The link has a schematic and two simulation examples. One example > is > >very > >close trace to trace spacing, the other has very wide trace to > trace > >spacing. In both cases the traces are 20 inches long using a PCI > >Express > >driver. > > > >The difference between the two is about 10% in eye opening. > > > >I am happy to do more simulations to illustrate your points, I just > want > a > >common picture from which we can all work. > > > >TFox > > > > At 12:22 PM 6/28/2007, Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx wrote: > > > > >I don't believe in public stoning.... > > > > > >What you have said is pretty much true for the special case where > the > > >two 50 Ohm traces are far enough appart to have negligible > coupling. > > >Take a look at cases where there is significant coupling. For > >instance, > > >make a 100 Ohm diff pair from two 60 Ohm traces. Let me know... > > > > > > > > >Aubrey Sparkman > > >Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team > > >Dell, Inc. > > >Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx > > >(512) 723-3592 > > > > > >The Greatest Pleasure in Life is Doing what People say can't be > done... > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > >On Behalf Of Terry Fox > > >Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:29 PM > > >To: gkorony@xxxxxxxxx; Si-List > > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: DC-blocking transmission-line > > > > > >At risk of being stoned...the "differential impedance" has very > little > > >to do with anything. > > > > > >The key issues is the impedance of the individual lines to their > > >reference. > > > > > >The number "differential impedance" comes from 2 X Z0 which is > the > > >characteristic impedance of each of the individual lines. > > > > > >If these lines are balanced mirror images, the current through > each of > > >the two Z0 50 ohm resistors cancels and there is no net current > out the > > >reference...hence you can use a single 100ohm resistor rather > than two > > >50 ohm resistors. > > > > > >The out fall of this is that everyone thinks differential > imp[edance is > > >some magical thing. > > > > > >In my experience it is not. > > > > > >He has touched the holy thing...let us now begin the stoning. > > > > > >TFox > > > > > >At 07:59 AM 6/28/2007, George Korony wrote: > > > > > > >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > > > > boundary="----=_NextPart_002_0008_01C7B973.5B78CED0" > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_002_0008_01C7B973.5B78CED0 > > > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >BlankHi All, > > > >I am not a board designer, but I do design parts that other > people > >put > > > >on boards. We are working on a new (patent protected) concept: > the " > > > >DC-blocking transmission-line". > > > >Basically the idea is to build a pair of capacitors that can be > > > >intercalated on the differential signal traces, having a > controlled > > > >characteristic impedance between the two capacitors, the > obvious > >scope > > > >is to reduce the reflections that may show up due the > DC-blocking > > >capacitors. > > > >One request, we have, is that the characteristic impedance > between > >the > > > >two capacitors (treated as a simple transmission line) should > be 100 > > >Ohm. > > > >Of course things are not so simple; and my question is: does > anyone > > > >have a different approach to this problem? > > > >Thanks for any suggestion, George. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_002_0008_01C7B973.5B78CED0 > > > >Content-Type: text/html; > > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> > Hi > >All, > > > >I am not a board designer, but I = do design=20 parts that > other > >people > > > > > > >put on boards. We are working on = a new =20 (patent protected) > > >concept: > > > >the " DC-blocking = transmission-line". > > > >Basically the idea is to build a = pair of=20 capacitors that > can be > > > >intercalated on the differential signal = traces,=20 having a > > > >controlled characteristic impedance between the two capacitors, > = > > > >the=20 obvious scope is to reduce the reflections that may show > up > >due > > > >the = DC-blocking capacitors. > > > >One request, we have, is that the=20 characteristic impedance > between > > > >the two capacitors (treated as a simple = transmission line) > should > >be > > >100 Ohm. > > > >Of course things are not so = simple; and my=20 question is: > does > > > >anyone have a different approach to this = problem? > > > >Thanks for any suggestion,=20 George. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_002_0008_01C7B973.5B78CED0-- > > > > > > > > > > > >-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- > > > >-- Type: image/gif > > > >-- File: Blank Bkgrd.gif > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- > > > >-- Type: text/x-vcard > > > >-- File: George Korony.vcf > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject > field > > > > > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > > > >For help: > > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > > > > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > > > http://www.si-list.net > > > > > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > >or at our remote archives: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject > field > > > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > >For help: > > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > > http://www.si-list.net > > > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > >or at our remote archives: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject > field > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > >For help: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.net > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject > field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > o ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu