[SI-LIST] Re: Current Return Vias
- From: Vinu Arumugham <vinu@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:03:54 -0700
Steve,
"I reiterate that I cannot think of a
case where one stitch via associated with one signal could make the
difference between acceptable and unacceptable S parameter
results. Either a pattern of vias is needed to make the difference,
( sic launch ) or none at all."
That sounds "digital"! I see it more as a continuum. A launch or
controlled impedance via may have 4-8 ground vias per signal. The XFP
MSA recommends a two ground vias per diff pair configuration for 10Gbps.
For 250 MHz DDR we have found 8 signal vias to a ground via works fine.
Previous generation FPGA pinouts forced a fanout that had 20-30 signal
vias to a ground via that made it a challenge to run 125 MHz DDR due to
excessive crosstalk.
It seems to me that with no ground vias, even when you may see
acceptable through S-parameters one can have unacceptable levels of
crosstalk.
Thanks,
Vinu
steve weir wrote:
>Lee, et-al I agree that there is a good deal of misinformation that
>circulates on this subject. It is another topic that ultimately
>comes down to the numbers. Single stitch vias are incapable of
>"maintaining return path continuity". What they can do is act in
>concert with other vias and planes, so that the net scattering has
>acceptably low loss.
>
> From my experience path impedance continuity to high frequencies as
>determined by low, linear S21 loss, and good S11 loss requires a
>pattern of vias associated with each launch. Teraspeed designs such
>launches everyday. But a return via pattern on a signal by signal
>basis eats up expensive real estate far too quickly to be practical
>for managing routing layer transitions.
>
>Usually we see these circumstances / effects from stitch vias:
>
>For boards without either multiple Vss layers, or puddles, there is
>nothing to stitch. It is down to bypass caps.
>
>For boards with multiple Vss layers and modest edge rates, the Vss
>vias of the bypass capacitors and components are usually well within
>the quasi static extents. Additional stitch vias directed at
>individual signals have very little impact. If for some reason a PCB
>has a lot of open real-estate, ( more often test vehicles than real
>PCBs ) then the situation changes and distributing stitch vias
>provides quantifiable benefits. For most practical designs the
>density and distribution is usually OK without adding extra stitch
>vias. When in doubt, do the homework.
>
>For boards with very fast edge rates, the quasi static extents are
>small, and stitch vias associated with individual signals display
>more pronounced effects. But, the dimensions become such that we
>really have to throw away the quasi static model and look at the
>various wave modes. This requires a 3D full wave tool like HFSS, or
>CST. For really fast signals, I reiterate that I cannot think of a
>case where one stitch via associated with one signal could make the
>difference between acceptable and unacceptable S parameter
>results. Either a pattern of vias is needed to make the difference,
>( sic launch ) or none at all.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Steve.
>
>At 03:34 PM 7/24/2006, Lee Ritchey wrote:
>
>
>>Ihsan,
>>
>>Well put.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>[Original Message]
>>>From: Ihsan Erdin <erdinih@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <giovanni.guasti@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Date: 7/23/2006 7:36:40 AM
>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Current Return Vias
>>>
>>>Giovanni,
>>>The EMC justification of a ground via in the close proximity of a
>>>
>>>
>>switching
>>
>>
>>>via is to minimize radial waves to the edges of the card by providing a
>>>"return path" (I hate this phrase...) A two-wire kind of transmission line
>>>-as you put it- would be another rationalization against the impedance
>>>discontinuity for high-speed signals. In practice, however, the placement
>>>
>>>
>>of
>>
>>
>>>a ground via close enough to a switching via in order to provide a
>>>
>>>
>>matching
>>
>>
>>>impedance to -say 50 ohm- or to mitigate radial wave propagation is in
>>>
>>>
>>most
>>
>>
>>>cases -if not all- physically impossible. I think this kind of SI/EMI
>>>rule-of-thumbs are based on a qualitative understanding of electromagnetic
>>>theory rather than rigorous research results. In this context, I share
>>>
>>>
>>Lee's
>>
>>
>>>stance to debunk these recommendations because they have significant
>>>
>>>
>>effect
>>
>>
>>>on the design cost by closing routing channels and eating up on the
>>>
>>>
>>valuable
>>
>>
>>>board real-estate. If anybody has come across any research that states
>>>otherwise in a peer-refereed publication I'd like to hear that.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Ihsan
>>>
>>>
>>>On 7/22/06, Giovanni Guasti <giovanni.guasti@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kenny,
>>>>GND vias near the signal are not dedicated to return currents, but they
>>>>are often used to optimize the impedance of the via.
>>>>As the via is a short transmission line, only the higher speed signals
>>>>can benefit of the difference between an optimized via and a "usual"
>>>>via.
>>>>
>>>>You have to compare the higher frequency component of your signal, its
>>>>wavelength and the via length. This will give you an idea of the
>>>>effective needing to optimize this short transmission line.
>>>>
>>>>Of course you could have a 133MHz signal with very sharp edges and high
>>>>frequency components, even if it seems very unusual... In this case it
>>>>would be wise to choose a slower transmitter!
>>>>
>>>>The rule is to understand if the via behaves like a transmission line
>>>>for your signal or not, and in the first case to do the best to reduce
>>>>impedance discontinuities.
>>>>Best regards,
>>>> Giovanni
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
>>>>Sent: 22 July 2006 18:36
>>>>To: Kenny Frohlich; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Current Return Vias
>>>>
>>>>Kenny,
>>>>
>>>>It is not true that you need a "return current" via next to each layer
>>>>changing signal via. I continue to be amazed that engineers who are
>>>>looked upon as SI experts say such things.
>>>>
>>>>Imagine you have a 4 layer PCB, such as the mother board in a PC, where
>>>>there are only two planes, one Vdd and one ground, where would such vias
>>>>connect? There have been billions of these made to date that work just
>>>>fine and have very fast signals on them. The return currents you are
>>>>concerned about find their way from plane to plane through the
>>>>collection
>>>>of decoupling capacitors and interplane capacitance that you had to
>>>>engineer into the power delivery system in order to make it stable.
>>>>Focus
>>>>on this and the return currents take care of themselves. EMI is
>>>>minimized
>>>>he same way..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>[Original Message]
>>>>>From: Kenny Frohlich <kenny_frohlich@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>Date: 7/22/2006 6:45:56 AM
>>>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Current Return Vias
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear Experts,
>>>>> I understand that I need to provide ground vias next to via
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>explictly
>>>>for the purpose of letting return currents jump between layers. I know
>>>>it's a requirement for high speed signals, especially differrential
>>>>signals. Is this also required for low speed single-ended signals
>>>>(133Mhz
>>>>or slower)? =20
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If this is a requirement, what would be a good signal via to ground
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>via
>>>>ratio? For example, there are five signal vias within a 1 inch area,
>>>>how
>>>>many ground vias do I need?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>> Kenny
>>>>> =20
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