Ihsan, Well put. > [Original Message] > From: Ihsan Erdin <erdinih@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <giovanni.guasti@xxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: 7/23/2006 7:36:40 AM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Current Return Vias > > Giovanni, > The EMC justification of a ground via in the close proximity of a switching > via is to minimize radial waves to the edges of the card by providing a > "return path" (I hate this phrase...) A two-wire kind of transmission line > -as you put it- would be another rationalization against the impedance > discontinuity for high-speed signals. In practice, however, the placement of > a ground via close enough to a switching via in order to provide a matching > impedance to -say 50 ohm- or to mitigate radial wave propagation is in most > cases -if not all- physically impossible. I think this kind of SI/EMI > rule-of-thumbs are based on a qualitative understanding of electromagnetic > theory rather than rigorous research results. In this context, I share Lee's > stance to debunk these recommendations because they have significant effect > on the design cost by closing routing channels and eating up on the valuable > board real-estate. If anybody has come across any research that states > otherwise in a peer-refereed publication I'd like to hear that. > > Regards > > Ihsan > > > On 7/22/06, Giovanni Guasti <giovanni.guasti@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > Kenny, > > GND vias near the signal are not dedicated to return currents, but they > > are often used to optimize the impedance of the via. > > As the via is a short transmission line, only the higher speed signals > > can benefit of the difference between an optimized via and a "usual" > > via. > > > > You have to compare the higher frequency component of your signal, its > > wavelength and the via length. This will give you an idea of the > > effective needing to optimize this short transmission line. > > > > Of course you could have a 133MHz signal with very sharp edges and high > > frequency components, even if it seems very unusual... In this case it > > would be wise to choose a slower transmitter! > > > > The rule is to understand if the via behaves like a transmission line > > for your signal or not, and in the first case to do the best to reduce > > impedance discontinuities. > > Best regards, > > Giovanni > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey > > Sent: 22 July 2006 18:36 > > To: Kenny Frohlich; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Current Return Vias > > > > Kenny, > > > > It is not true that you need a "return current" via next to each layer > > changing signal via. I continue to be amazed that engineers who are > > looked upon as SI experts say such things. > > > > Imagine you have a 4 layer PCB, such as the mother board in a PC, where > > there are only two planes, one Vdd and one ground, where would such vias > > connect? There have been billions of these made to date that work just > > fine and have very fast signals on them. The return currents you are > > concerned about find their way from plane to plane through the > > collection > > of decoupling capacitors and interplane capacitance that you had to > > engineer into the power delivery system in order to make it stable. > > Focus > > on this and the return currents take care of themselves. EMI is > > minimized > > he same way.. > > > > > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Kenny Frohlich <kenny_frohlich@xxxxxxxxx> > > > To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > Date: 7/22/2006 6:45:56 AM > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Current Return Vias > > > > > > Dear Experts, > > > I understand that I need to provide ground vias next to via > > explictly > > for the purpose of letting return currents jump between layers. I know > > it's a requirement for high speed signals, especially differrential > > signals. Is this also required for low speed single-ended signals > > (133Mhz > > or slower)? =20 > > > If this is a requirement, what would be a good signal via to ground > > via > > ratio? For example, there are five signal vias within a 1 inch area, > > how > > many ground vias do I need? > > > =20 > > > Thank you > > > Kenny > > > =20 > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 > > > http://mail.yahoo.com=20 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > > For help: > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > > > List archives are viewable at: =20 > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > or at our remote archives: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > =20 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > List archives are viewable at: =20 > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > =20 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu