[SI-LIST] Re: Chip capacitance effect for SSN simulation
- From: "cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx" <cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Michael Greim" <mgreim001@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:12:38 +0000
Hi folks
thanks for your feedback.
I had to reduce the number of power pins in HFSS simulation otherwise the full
3D model with all power pins was to huge to simulate.
So I reduced 46 pwr needles of I/O pwr to only 6 around of my total 10 I/O I'm
simulating for SSN.
Cheers
Cris
Inviati dal mio telefono Nokia
----Messaggio Originale----
Da: Michael Greim
Inviati: 16/10/2011, 15:13
A: steve weir
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Oggetto: [SI-LIST] Re: Chip capacitance effect for SSN simulation
Great points Steve (as always). Cristian, a simulation
is only as good as its ability to properly mirror the actual
correlated test setup. As you strip this that and the other
thing out, the sim and the hardware behavior will become very
different from one another. Set up some test cases with
your queries and see if the behaviors are convergent or
divergent.
Why did you "have to" reduce the number of power pins?
Build up a better relationship with your vendor and tell them
what you are looking for and why and you might be quite
surprised what they give you. Perhaps even an RLC matrix
or two and with a story relating of other customers who have
run into similar issues.
Check out my quote from Mr fleischmann below. Works
great for a number of things in real life and the simulated
behavior thereof including SI/PI sims.........
-Michael.
We will either find a way or make one -Hannibal
In the middle of every difficulty lies opportunity -Al Einstein
If you're not getting the results you want with the
current approach, move on and try something else. -A. Fleischmann
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 5:39 AM, steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> You need a model of the silicon that includes the on-die capacitance.
> You can try to obtain this, or if it is not available, then derive it
> from measurements. The complexity of the model that you construct
> depends on how much accuracy you need. You will still face the same
> challengess as others in the ATE business when dealing with the parallel
> bus structure of DRAM switching with very small rise and fall times, and
> the inductance of your probing interconnects.
>
> Steve.
>
> On 10/16/2011 2:25 AM, Cristian Gozzi wrote:
> > Hi SI members
> > I'm simulating DDR2 SSN for a Probe Card system
> >
> > for those that are not familiar with this application, Probe Card is an
> > hardware application to physical connect DIE pads/bumps at wafer level to
> > ATE system during Electric Wafer Sort
> > In my case Probe-Card is build by a vertical needles that touch DIE pads
> +
> > PCB
> >
> > During frequency domain analysis of my system, I got a strong PDN peak
> > impedance around 1GHz
> > This peak impedance was due to anti-resonance effect between PCB PDN
> system
> > and needle PWR parasitic effect
> >
> > so during time domain analysis I got a strong and unreasonable AC noises
> > also with only 2 switching DQ
> >
> > In my spice deck I only used IBIS model provided by silicon vendor and I
> > excluded RLC package effects, since my application is contacting directly
> > wafer.
> >
> > I think I should include chip power rail capacitance effect in order to
> > filter high freq noises.
> >
> > But my question is: which C and R value should I use?
> >
> > Is these value included in IBIS model?
> >
> > NOTE: consider that I had to reduce number of PWR needles used for HFSS
> > simulation, so I only selected those needles around my 8 DQ + 2 DQS
> >
> > So I think I should put a lower value of chip capacitance than total one
> >
> > Any comments from expert are more than welcome
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Regards
> > Cris
> >
> >
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>
> --
> Steve Weir
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