There are those who use scare tactics to justify their consulting jobs and academic life and there are those who have to do real designs and ship products. Sure, you can write a paper by doing the following experiment : Put some switching push pull drivers as microstrip and toggle them at fast edge rate. The fact that its microstrip denies one of the switch edge (most likely the low to high transition) image current to return on the reference plane. In order to provide a low impedance path for the return current, you either have to provide 100's of decoupling caps (just to have low enough ESL) for the return current or you use Zycon planes to provide the low impedance capacitor path. What the paper didn't say is if you bury the signal trace with the proper reference planes and there by providing the lowest and tightest coupling return path, the EMI and noise will drop to beyond any 100's of caps or Zycon plane can provide you. Congratulations on discovering plane resonance. Now try this real world experiment. Sprinkle in hundreds of decoupling capacitors with different values and in different location. Then put in thousands of power and ground vias mimicking real life package power and ground pins. Stitch ground vias around the edge of the board like what real world design. Lets see if you still have your resonance. -----Original Message----- From: MikonCons@xxxxxxx [mailto:MikonCons@xxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 6:38 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Buried Capacitance thread comments (The whole thing) [MLC] Sorry, Chris, but you are WAY off on this one. Check out the literature from 1989-1991 and the electronic "Product of the Year" award given to Zycon for the ZBC 2000 product (the original name) for EMI reduction. I know you are practicing some good design to achieve Class B certification, but good power/ground plane decoupling plays a major part in that success. Many papers demonstrated attenuatin of 20-30 dB over all frequencies above 40 MHz when using BC and DELETING over 100 0.1 Uf decoupling capacitors. (Check with Dr. Jim Howard at Sanmina, Santa Clara, CA if you doubt this.) Lee Ritchey commented correctly on the contribution of the planar decoupling. ********* [MLC] Chris makes a key point in identifying the return path for any high-speed currents. However, the reference to the Zycon planes seems to be a slam at the benefits of that technology. If one studies RF techniques in depth, then the fact that for a given resonance frequency the Q of that resonance is decreased with increased capacitance. This is the unheralded forte of the buried capacitance concept. I have performed spectrum analyzer tests (with a tracking generator) on circular and square PCBs (11" diameter/side) employing BC that clearly demonstrated (relative to identical PCBs without BC) NO RESONANCE effects at high frequencies (>40 MHz). The effect of this characteristic is LOWER EMI that is (many times) caused by PCB dimensional resonances. This benefit is particularly useful for High-Tg FR-4 boards and higher frequency designs (>500 MHz) as the FR-4 losses play a significant role at the higher harmonics. ********* From the above comnments, I wish only to convey that we are all still learning, and an open mind is critical to solving the design challenges of the future. Mike Michael L. Conn Owner/Principal Consultant Mikon Consulting *** Serving Your Needs with Technical Excellence *** ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu