[SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
- From: Roy Leventhal <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
- To: Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:45:46 -0500
Thank you Chris and tank you for your "yapping." You are a valuable
contributor to SI-LIST.
Roy
Chris Cheng wrote:
> There is an old Chinese saying along the line of "frogs view of the
> world underneath the well".
> I am sitting underneath my well and yapping. I think I have said
> enough in my last mail and I have nothing else to add.
> Those who get what I am saying already got it, there is no point of
> repeating. But the topic is sure appropriate, getting some SI
> education in the USA. More than a few of us need it.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Roy Leventhal [mailto:Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Mon 3/24/2008 1:39 PM
> *To:* Chris Cheng
> *Cc:* Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal; olaney@xxxxxxxx;
> avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
>
> Chris,
>
> For the past six years I have been advocating the use of more simulation
> tools among my EMI engineering colleagues (at work and in the IEEE EMC
> Society), so I am not unsympathetic to some of your points.
>
> I find many EMI engineers reluctant to use EDA tools and relatively few
> simultaneously cognizant of theory, estimating (yellow pad), simulation,
> and measurement in both SI and EMI. Meanwhile, I find continual progress
> being made by EDA tool vendors that should be continually evaluated by
> the EMI engineering discipline. I also find a growing level of
> acceptance of, an interest in, modeling and simulation tools.
>
> Historically, those EMI EDA tools have not been ready for prime time as
> far as EMI engineers are concerned. So they do what they have to do to
> get a product to pass regulatory: Test, measure, find and fix, and
> iterate until they get a product to pass.
>
> What I see is that when an EMI engineer is in a test cell measuring
> conducted and radiated emissions and susceptibility they are working
> with frequency spectrum scans. Those frequency spectrum scans are the
> data they have to present, not diagrams of eye opening and other SI
> plots. Simulating partial planes an IC package is part of the detailed
> design but usually too much detail for them to simulate at the system
> level.
>
> My first question is, can you provide me some insight into your model
> abstraction and simplification process? I usually can’t afford
> simulating a system down to the gate level when seeking EMI answers.
> Some modern CMOS models incorporate around 250 factors for around 50
> elements per gate and I/Os have multiple gates.
>
> Also, what models are you using for the IC? Are you using Berkeley
> SPICE, EKV, PSPICE, S-Parameter, large or small signal, or IBIS, or
> what? I’m seeing evidence that factors we can control at the system
> level are sometimes interactive AND non-linear and would like to know
> the best models to use and their valid frequency, voltage, and
> temperature limitations. I suspect that some of the non-linearities are
> due to power system noise modulation of my IC I/Os. I also would like to
> investigate if there is core-switching noise getting to my I/Os.
>
> Since I’m trying to correlate with hardware I would also need to know
> the distributions of the IC model parameters for the various parts on
> the board, as well as the passive components, and the variables for your
> dielectric uniformity, trace parameters, etc. I suspect that I’ll have
> to do a statistical simulation since in my prototypes I’m not quite sure
> which part of the distribution my parts came from. I would like to
> repeat the –50 dB you achieved especially since I would expect to verify
> the results against hardware. What particular statistical method did you
> use in achieving your results? And when you verified those results did
> you do it against at least 25 working prototypes to remove the element
> of chance?
>
> How about your measurement repeatability, I assume its good. I know for
> myself that when cables are moved just a bit on my test bench my
> repeatability is a problem. The movement of objects in my anechoic
> chamber and the use of different measurement antennas seem to cause
> similar problems. Of course you have modeled all this in verifying your
> results, so I seek your guidance since as you state you have many years
> of both SI and EMI experience. Since I’m dealing with the safety of an
> airplane I can’t be too careful.
>
> Also, I’m seeing changes in my EMI results with changes in the data
> patterns on my boards and changes in the strengths of emitters in
> various positions on my boards. So I’m sure that your 50 dB EMI
> correlation must account for magnitude and phase at any place in your
> measurement chamber.
>
> One thing that upsets me is a 500 KHz switching power supply in my
> system that is producing significant harmonics out to 50 MHz and beyond.
> I know that if I simulate its effects that I’ll have to use a SPICE EDA
> tool that can model layout structure and converge with resonant
> circuits. I haven’t found one readily available that I can import my
> layout from Allegro into. Unfortunately, I have to contend with such
> beasties operating alongside my moderately fast digital stuff and I
> can’t quite do everything I want with the board stackup because I’m
> dealing with 10s to 100s of amps in my system, not milliamps to microamps.
>
> One of my EMI colleagues in another company has become more interested
> in simulation (I think I inspired him a little) and who is working with
> some first class EMI EDA companies. A real breakthrough was achieved
> when his technical contact said “Aha, you want a virtual test bench so
> you can directly compare simulation to measurement.” They’re working on
> it and achieving some good, if varied results. They’ll need such a tool
> when they need to do a quick turn-around on a design iteration. But, he
> didn’t indicate 50 dB correlations real soon. They had to simplify the
> problem to get it to run in a reasonable time. One thing they didn’t do
> is model the antenna.
>
> Do I believe that EMI modeling and simulation is an absolute necessity?
> You bet I do. But, I see a different world with different emphasizes and
> needs that will have to be addressed by EDA vendors before the much
> criticized and much harried “average” EMI engineer can be successfully
> engaged in making greater use of those tools.
>
> I have many more questions about the issues I raised above and some
> others I have. I’m sure that we’ll get into them after you have
> instructed me further in my deficiencies as you have already kindly
> done. I know that I don’t know near enough in my business and I’m open
> to your instruction.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Roy
>
>
> Chris Cheng wrote:
> > I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
> > My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers. I
> > am responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't
> > care if it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work
> > for me is capable of doing both.
> > > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
> > > make an entire
> > > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
> > > half-dozen principles
> > I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make
> > their career out of my examples below.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal [mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
> > *To:* Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> > *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
> >
> > Chris,
> > I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website:
> > http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com
> <http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>
> > <http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>. I'm also a great advocate
> > of combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and
> > understanding.
> > I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering. Before
> > either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I
> > suggest they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
> > You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users in
> > the future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
> > Best Regards
> > Roy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
> > *Sent:* Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
> > *To:* olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> > *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the
> USA
> >
> > I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with
> > accuracy down to -50db with a yellow pad.
> > I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily
> > loaded DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and
> > driving positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow
> > pad.
> > I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has
> > imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
> > I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz
> > IC where the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and
> > 3D with a yellow pad.
> > Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What
> > does your average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > *From:* si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
> > *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
> > *To:* Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> > *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > *Subject:* [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
> >
> >
> > The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily
> > reliant upon
> > really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs
> into
> > something workable. The same designer, given adequate understanding
> of
> > the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a
> > yellow pad,
> > then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI
> > related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list
> of
> > tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is:
> > substitution of
> > tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get
> into
> > trouble.
> >
> > Orin
> >
> > On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:53:44 -0500 Roy Leventhal
> > <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
> > writes:
> > > Avtaar,
> > >
> > > It seems strange to me that in the present/coming years of
> > > "microwave
> > > digital" that we will be graduating logic designers who will be
> > > unable to
> > > get their signals across a PCB or keep those signals from
> > > interfering with
> > > other signals.
> > >
> > > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
> > > make an entire
> > > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
> > > half-dozen principles
> > > from SI/EMI 101. But, fixing problems in hardware instead of
> > > catching them in the
> > > virtual design not working smart. Part of the challenge of working
> > > smart is applying
> > > principles and analysis early in development. The logic designer
> is
> > > best positioned
> > > to do that or involve specialist to do it for him or her.
> > >
> > > First we had the analog age. Then we had the digital age. Now I
> > > believe we
> > > have the dawning of the age of fast impulse signals driving logic
> > > circuits.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile our schools are, as always, a day late and a dollar
> short
> > > - not
> > > necessarily a few individual professors and schools here and
> there.
> > > When I got my
> > > BSEE in 1962 my professors were still teaching me about vacuum
> tubes
> > > and had barely
> > > started seriously considering teaching transistors. This is
> despite
> > > the fact that
> > > industry had developed viable transistors for nearly a decade by
> > > then.
> > >
> > > The IEEE EMC Society is just now making a credible effort to
> address
> > > signal
> > > integrity. But, signal integrity has been a driving issue for
> about
> > > 20
> > > years now.
> > >
> > > It is hard to evolve institutionalized cultures (schools,
> > > professional societies, and
> > > old-line companies) and thinking. They are, after all, in the
> > > business of perpetuating
> > > their PAST successes and expertise.
> > >
> > > The advice about UM-R is good. So is the advice about noting which
> > > professors and
> > > schools are publishing in the latest technologies. Beyond that,
> stay
> > > informed and well
> > > ead from industry-oriented trade magazines in those latest
> > > technologies on your own.
> > > Let me suggest High Frequency, Conformity, and the IEEE EMC
> Society
> > > quarterly newsletter.
> > >
> > > Lastly, here is a reading list of reference textbooks you can
> > > consider perusing:
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] Staff of Agilent Technologies, "Time Domain Reflectometry
> > > Theory,"
> > > Application Note 1304-2 Hewlett-Packard, 2006.
> > >
> > > See also:
> > >
> > > Staff of HP, "Time Domain Reflectometry Theory," Application Note
> > > 1304-2
> > > Hewlett-Packard, 1988.
> > > http://www.lthe.hmg.inpg.fr/medite/5966-4855E.pdf
> > >
> > > [2] Staff of Agilent, "Manuals: Network Analyzers," Various,
> > > down-loadable, Agilent.
> > >
> >
> http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;
> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;>
> >
> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;
> >
> > cc=US&lc=eng&no=225
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1
> > &cc=US&lc=eng&no=225>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [3] C. Antonescu, P.D. Ewing, "EMI/RFI and Power Surge Withstand
> > > Guidance for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."
> > >
> > > [4] Bruce R. Archambeault, "Shielding of Air Vent Holes," page 102
> > > IEEE
> > > EMC Society Newsletter, Issue # 215, Fall 2007
> > >
> > > [5] Bruce R. Archambeault and James L. Drewniak, /PCB Design for
> > > Real
> > > World EMI Control/, Springer, 2002. ISBN: 1-4020-7130-2
> > >
> > > [6] Bill Ashley, "Using the Network Analyzer as a Grid Dip
> > > Oscillator,"
> > > AN 132 AEA Technology, Inc., 2005
> > >
> >
> http://www.aeatechnology.com/usermanuals/AN132%20Using%20the%20Network%20
> > Analyzer%20as%20a%20Grid%20Dip%20Oscillator.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [7] Eric Bogatin, /Signal Integrity: Simplified/, Prentice Hall,
> > > 2004.
> > > ISBN: 0-13-066946-6
> > >
> > > [8] Marty Brown, "Good Physical Layout Takes Black Magic Out of
> > > Power
> > > Supply Design," EDA Design Line, 2000.
> > >
> http://www.edadesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?article?ID=192200741
> > >
> > > [9] Nachyuck Chang, "Theory of Oscilloscope," SNU.
> > > http://elpl.snu.ac.kr/csd07/lecturenote/4_dso.pdf
> > >
> > > [10] Sonia Ben Dhia, Mohamed Ramdani, and Etienne Sicard,
> > > /Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits: Techniques
> > > for
> > > Low Emission and Susceptibility,/ Springer, 2005. ISBN:
> > >
> > > [11] Mike Eberly and Larry Dunleavy, "Student's Introduction to
> the
> > > HP8714 RF Network Analyzer," 1998
> > > http://ee.eng.usf.edu/people/dunleavy/references/reading2.pdf
> > >
> > > [12] Morris Engelson and Fred Telewski, /Spectrum Analyzer Theory
> > > and
> > > Applications,/ Artech House, 1974. ISBN-10: 089006024X, ISBN-13:
> > > 978-0890060247
> > >
> > > [13] Y. W. Fowlkes, C. L. Creveling, /Engineering Methods for
> Robust
> > >
> > > Product Design/, Addison-Wesley, 1995.
> > >
> > > [14] Gene Garat, and Staff of IBM, "EMSAT Rules Checker 16 Rules,"
> > > Moss
> > > Bay EDA and IBM, http://www.mossbayeda.com/EMSAT-Rules.pdf, March
> > > 2006.
> > >
> > > [15] Michael Hiebel, /Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis/,
> > > Rohde &
> > > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-0
> > >
> > > [16] Todd Hubing, "Circuit Board Layout to Reduce Noise Emission
> and
> > >
> > > Susceptibility," University of Missouri - Rolla, March 2006
> > >
> > > [17] Multivariate Statistical Analysis: IBM Data Explorer,
> > > http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/
> > >
> > > [18] Staff, ICEM #62014-3, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 3
> > > Integrated Circuits Electrical Modeling," IEC Standard Proposal/,
> > > /2002.
> > >
> > > [19] Staff, IEC # 61000-4-2, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part
> 4-2
> > >
> > > Testing and Measurement Techniques - Electrostatic Discharge
> > > Immunity
> > > Test, IEC, 2001. ISBN: 2-8318-5687-6
> > >
> > > [20] Yoonjae Lee and Raj Mittra, "Electromagnetic Interference
> > > Mitigation by Using a Spread-Spectrum Approach," IEEE Transactions
> > > on
> > > Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 44, No. 2, May 2002.
> > >
> > > [22] Roy Leventhal and Lynne Green, Semiconductor Modeling: For
> > > Simulating Signal, Power and Electromagnetic Integrity, Springer,
> > > 2006.
> > > ISBN 0-387-24159-0
> > >
> > > [23] Michel Mardiguian, /Controlling Radiated Emissions by Design,
> > > 2^nd
> > > Ed.,/ Springer, 2001. ISBN: 0792379780
> > >
> > > [24] F. D. Martzloff, "Lightening and NEMP Transient Protection
> with
> > >
> > > Metal Oxide Varistors," General Electric Technical Information
> > > Series
> > > 82CRD084, 1982.
> > >
> > > [25] Staff, Maxim, "A Beginners Guide to Filter Topologies,"
> > > Application
> > > Note 1762 Maxim, Inc., 2002,
> > > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1762
> > >
> > > [26] Staff, Maxim, "EMI/EMC Suppression in Audio/Video
> Interfaces,"
> > > Application Note 3882 Maxim, Inc., 2006,
> > > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3882
> > >
> > > [27] Scott Mee, Roy Leventhal, Al Wexler and Mike Ventham,
> > > "Simulation
> > > for the Suppression of PCB Emissions in Digital Telematics
> Devices,"
> > >
> > > ITEM Update 2002, p56.
> > >
> > > [28] Staff of Mentor Graphics, "Design Rule Checks (DRC) for
> > > QuietExpert," Mentor Graphics, June 2005
> > >
> > > [29] Staff of National Instruments, "Noise Figure Measurement with
> > > the
> > > National Instruments RF Signal Generator and RF Vector Signal
> > > Analyzer,"
> > > National Instruments, 2006
> > > http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3737
> > >
> > > [30] Henry W. Ott, /Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic
> > > Systems,
> > > 2^nd Ed./, John Wiley & Sons, 1988. ISBN: 0-471-85068-3
> > >
> > > [31] Edward Pasahow, /Electronics Pocket Reference, 2^nd Ed/.,
> > > McGraw-Hill, 1994. ISBN 0-07-048737-5
> > >
> > > [32] Clayton R. Paul, Introduction to Electromagnetic
> Compatibility,
> > >
> > > John Wiley & Sons, 1992. ISBN: 0-471-54927-4
> > >
> > > [33] R. A. Pease, /Troubleshooting Analog Circuits/, Newnes, 1991.
> > > ISBN:
> > > 0750694998
> > >
> > > [34] R. Perez, Editor, /Handbook of Electromagnetic
> Compatibility,/
> > > Academic Press, Inc. 1995.
> > >
> > > [35] A. Peterson, S. Ray & R. Mittra, Computational Methods for
> > > Electromagnetics, IEEE Press & Oxford University Press, 1998.
> > >
> > > [36] M. S. Phadke, /Quality Engineering Using Robust Design/,
> > > Prentice-Hall, 1989.
> > >
> > > [37] Muhammad H. Rashid, Power /Electronics: Circuits, Devices and
> > > Applications, 2^nd Ed./, Prentice Hall, 1993. ISBN 0-13-678996-X
> > >
> > > [38] Christoph Rauscher, /Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis/,
> Rohde
> > > &
> > > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-00-8
> > >
> > > [39] Staff, /Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for
> > > Airborne
> > > Equipment, DO-160E,/ RTCA, Inc., 2004
> > >
> > > [41] Madhavan Swaminathan and A. Ege Engin, /Power Integrity
> > > Modeling
> > > and Design for Semiconductors and Systems,/ Prentice Hall, 2008.
> > > ISBN:
> > > 0-13-615206-6
> > >
> > > [42] Staff of Wavecrest, "Oscilloscope - Getting Started,"
> Wavecrest
> > >
> > > 2001.
> > >
> >
> http://www.wavecrest.com/technical/VISI_6_Getting_Started_Guides/6oscillo
> > scope.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [44] Wikipedia, "Electronic test equipment"
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_test_equipment
> > >
> > > [45] Wikipedia, "Insulated-gate bipolar transistor"
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT
> > >
> > > [46] A. B. Williams & F. J. Taylor, /Electronic Filter Design
> > > Handbook,
> > > 3^rd Ed./, McGraw-Hill, 1995.
> > >
> > > [47] Staff X2Y, "App Note # 3008, V1, Get the Most from X2Y
> > > Capacitors
> > > with Proper Attachment Techniques," X2Y Attenuators, LLC.
> 2/23/2006.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > >
> > > <#_ftnref1>
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Luck
> > >
> > > Roy Leventhal
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Avtaar Singh wrote:
> > > > Gurus:
> > > > Can someone please name the Top 5 Signal Integrity schools in
> the
> > > US, for
> > > > me?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the kind help!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Avtaar
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> > > field
> > > >
> > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > > >
> > > > For help:
> > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > List technical documents are available at:
> > > > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/>
> <http://www.si-list.net/>
> > > >
> > > > List archives are viewable at:
> > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > > or at our remote archives:
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> > > field
> > >
> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> > >
> > > For help:
> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> > >
> > >
> > > List technical documents are available at:
> > > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/>
> <http://www.si-list.net/>
> > >
> > > List archives are viewable at:
> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > > or at our remote archives:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> >
> > List technical documents are available at:
> > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/>
> <http://www.si-list.net/>
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> > or at our remote archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
> > This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
> > confidential, and privileged material for the sole use of the
> > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this
> > email (or any attachments) by others is strictly prohibited. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
> > immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of
> > this email and any attachments thereto.
> >
> > This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
> > confidential, and privileged material for the sole use of the intended
> > recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any
> > attachments) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
> > intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and
> > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
> > attachments thereto.
> >
>
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
> confidential, and privileged material for the sole use of the intended
> recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any
> attachments) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and
> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
> attachments thereto.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
